Azrael and the Poet: Jennifer Jurlando on Grief, Death Care, and Being Alive

Azrael and the Poet: Jennifer Jurlando on Grief, Death Care, and Being Alive

In this deeply moving first half of a two-part conversation, hosts Jennifer Taylor and Tava Baird welcome their dear friend Mystical Musing fan, Jennifer Jurlando. Jurlando is a poet, grief support facilitator, death doula, bonecaster and founder of Thistle Community Death Care. In this rich and tender episode, the conversation explores grief, mortality, ritual, embodiment, and the profound ways that contemplating death can deepen one’s experience of being alive. Azrael — the angel of death, transition, and transformation — and Jurlando’s long relationship with this presence, both personally and through her work with the dying and the bereaved are discussed. Samael shares his unique perspective on Azrael, offering a rare and compelling reflection that many longtime followers of the podcast will not want to miss.  Throughout the episode, Jurlando shares several of her own poems, bringing language and tenderness to places that often feel beyond words. Her reflections on loss, the body, grief, ritual, and the sacredness of end-of-life care offer both depth and beauty, while also illuminating the heart behind her work.  This conversation includes discussion of stillbirth, grief, death, and end-of-life planning, but it is also filled with warmth, humor, reverence, and a powerful appreciation for life itself.

Content note: This episode includes discussion of grief, stillbirth, death, and end-of-life care.

Resources:

Patreon Link- https://www.patreon.com/c/jenniferjurlando

Thistle Community Death Care: http://www.thistlecommunitydeathcare.com/

Chesterfield Poetry Collective - www.chesterfieldpoetry.com 

Full Circle Grief Center  www.fullcirclegc.org 

Events-  

Wilder Grove Workshop, April 4- https://www.wildergrove.com/event-details/reclaiming-death-rites-end-of-life-ritual-planning

Fertile Ground - Ritual in Effigy: Mortality and Transformation, April 30-May 3 https://www.fertilegroundgathering.com/workshops

Chesterfield Library Events - May 14, Death Doula Panel

June 28 Mock Funeral at the Blue Ball Inn https://www.tavabaird.com/event-details/the-darkflower-collective-mock-pagan-funeral

Please remember this podcast is for inspiration, reflection, and entertainment only, and is not medical, psychological, or professional advice.

We are two friends sharing personal experiences and evolving perspectives as we learn and grow. This is not a substitute for your own discernment, inner wisdom, or qualified professional guidance.

Take what resonates, trust your intuition, and seek licensed support when needed, always honoring your own inner knowing and personal truth.

Thank you joining us today, you are a valued member of our tribe!  If you are enjoying the podcast, please consider telling your friends and sharing it on social media.  We would greatly appreciate your support in helping us reach others and spread our messages of worth, openness and exploration. 

Connect with your Hosts!

Tava Baird:   tavabaird.com or https://darkflowerbooks.etsy.com.

Jennifer Taylor:  Amnivara (previously Willow Ridge Reiki and Healing Arts)           https://www.Amnivara.com/

Transcript

Jennifer Taylor: [00:00:00] All right. Good morning, Tava Baird. 

Tava Baird: Good morning, Jennifer Taylor. How's it going over there in your neck of the woods? 

Jennifer Taylor: It is wonderful, especially since we are also looking at Jennifer Jurlando. Hi. 

Tava Baird: For those of you who have heard us mention her about 50,000 times on various podcasts, we decided we finally needed to bring her on so you could sort of one sided meet her yourself.

So everybody, Jennifer Jurlando, Jennifer Jurlando, everybody. 

Jennifer Jurlando: Oh, everybody. I'm so happy to meet you finally. 

Tava Baird: If you are, uh, new to Jennifer Jurlando, it means you've skipped a whole lot of episodes, so go back and get them. But, um, Jennifer is many, many things. [00:01:00] In addition to being a dear friend of, Gente and mine, she is an accomplished poet.

She is a grief counselor, a death doula, and she has started a beautiful, beautiful business called this old community Death Care. And, She is also the person who has made me a corpse on several occasions. So, we wanted to bring her on today to talk about all of the different facets of her work. I know this is gonna be really beneficial because whenever I go to markets or whenever I get on Facebook, I have people that write me and say, I think I'm interested in becoming a, a death worker.

Do you know what, like the first step would be? And I always go, hang on, let me message Jennifer Jurlando. So I think you got one of those last night actually. So guys, you're gonna be able to, to hear her right here [00:02:00] today and maybe get some wonderful resources for starting your journey if in you are interested in moving down that path.

Or if you're just a really cool poet, you'll love this too. 

Jennifer Jurlando: Thank you. Tava, I'm gonna correct one thing. I am, a grief support group facilitator, but I'm not a grief counselor, so I just wanna make sure that I'm not taking on creds that I don't deserve. I do, grief groups for tiny, teeny children all the way up to 97-year-old people in an assisted living.

So I, I support grievers at all parts of the lifecycle, but those little tiny ones are sort of my favorite. 

Tava Baird: The other thing that Jennifer is, is an extremely gifted bone caster and reader, so we have a lot of fun with that too. 

Jennifer Jurlando: We do, we had, um, Tava was in Richmond for a class this [00:03:00] weekend. on Saturday and on Sunday, one of the students sent me a message and said, would you help me figure out what this means?

And I was like, oh, you came to me. 

Tava Baird: you're good at it, lady. I mean, what can I say? You have a really lovely touch and beautiful insight and I love, I know two bone casters have the Samaele, uh, exact method of casting, but I love the elements that you've added into yours. I think they're just really wonderful and deep and beautiful.

And, um, and speaking of wonderful, deep and beautiful gente, do you have some music brewing there in your studio for us? 

Jennifer Taylor: I'm sure I do. I was just thinking, I was like, oh, yeah, I wonder what will come through and maybe who to invite in for, Setting the stage today Azrael. 

Tava Baird: I was just thinking the Samaele thing.

Bring in Azrael. [00:04:00]

Jennifer Taylor: Alright, so 

Jennifer Jurlando: it's funny and were given like, they're the only ones right now who have permission to show up. In my universe. Samael was like close the door to everybody else. Yes. Samael 

Jennifer Taylor: Alright, so Azrael. So I feel like Azrael and Lilith and of course with uh, Samael's permission and guidance, um.

I feel like balancing. I know the last time I called in Samael to sing through me, it was like, you need to make sure Michael is there to balance that because it's a lot to have to have them just like, who coming into me? So, you know, provided, uh, Samael is cool with it and feels like it's right. Um, I feel like Azrael balanced with, um, Michael because I think if I brought Azrael and Lilith in together, I might explode.

Jennifer Jurlando: Don't explode. 

Jennifer Taylor: I don't think [00:05:00] it would be a good idea. 

Tava Baird: Samael adds that. Gabriel is another, another good one to call in for this, that as real and Gabriel have a, a relationship that is a good bond. So that might be another one. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah, I, you're, you know, actually as soon as you said Gabrielle, I was like, oh, that makes sense.

And it's, it's really interesting. It feels like, I know we've talked so much about how Michael is in this one spot, like in my upper right and Samael, I feel in my, like, the opposite spot on my lower left. And I feel like when you said as real and Gabriel, it was like, everything did just this, like one little clock notch, you know, one little clock movement to the right and it was like, oh, Gabriel and reel.

Like, that's, that's a cool new, you know, balancing thing. Yeah. So. All right. I will, um, invite Gabriel and Azrael to come through and [00:06:00] see what they would like to bring through for us this morning. 

Tava Baird: That's wonderful. Forget. 

Jennifer Taylor: I'm excited. Boy, I've never done this combination of, being. 

Tava Baird: Angelic alchemy. 

Jennifer Taylor: Ooh.[00:07:00] [00:08:00] [00:09:00] [00:10:00]

Um,

[00:11:00] oh.

Whew. 

Jennifer Jurlando: Thank you. 

Jennifer Taylor: You're welcome. It is taking me a little longer than usual to kind of come back into this reality and space and time. I feel very, uh. Otherworldly. 

Tava Baird: It was really lovely. Thank you. It was a nice place to begin. Uh, and [00:12:00] it brought through something unusual for semi, and I can't help but think that this is because Jennifer Jurlando is here with us today.

Um, so for those of you who don't know, so first off, the three of us talk all the time. you know how Jennifer Taylor and I are endlessly Marco'ing, uh, well now we endlessly Marco with Jennifer Jurlando as well. So, um, we might have to stop and explain things so times to people. Um, as you know, I work with Samael Iel, but when I bone cast, he introduced Samael to.

And I don't have direct conversations with Samael. Samael just rings things in when I do phone readings. And, since I have been inviting Samael into my space, my entire divination practice has transformed. [00:13:00] Jennifer Jurlando has a much deeper and wider relationship with Samael. normally Samael does not speak much on the nature of other angels or beings they're than to sort of.

Jennifer Taylor: Just 

Tava Baird: reassure us at times. But with that lovely song, I have two full pages on his perspective on Samael, which I find really interesting. and he has never done this before. And Jennifer Jurlando, because you know, Azrael on so much better than I do, I'll be so curious to see what you think of this.

So here is what he said. Let us speak of the Angel Azrael. Azrael is most often identified as an angel of transition transformation and death metamorphosis, [00:14:00] guardianship. And yet none of these is foremost in my thoughts when I recall their visits. Instead, an altogether different trait appears. Curiosity.

This angel of shifting is insatiably curious, inquisitive about his human channels and how they behave. The seeker through and through a lover of experiments and a strong and gentle observer wishing to understand all she sets her eyes on. Side note, I'm noticing that we have three different pronouns going on for Azrael so far in this, which is interesting to me.

Darkness has its way in Azrael, but so does the saturation of color, the stroke of texture, the brilliance of the light. [00:15:00] And they do not judge the places you keep hidden and are ashamed of are just mysteries to him. Why and how are their favorite questions? The seeking of pattern and what is carried by each being through the veil are her obsessions.

Azrael is more than a presence at the end like their brother Gabriel. This angel has much in common with the vibrations of the recently incarnated active full of wonder In pursuit of discoveries, boundlessly kind we are much more than the stories. The poet will tell you, much more.

Jennifer Jurlando: Thank you, Samael. 

Tava Baird: So [00:16:00] Azrael, this is so interesting to me. Um, I always kind of got the idea that Azrael was a little bit of a shapeshifter, but I would love to know, about this curiosity part and if that's in your experience too, Jennifer. 

Jennifer Jurlando: Well, so for me, I think like the first piece is all the pronoun piece, right?

And, and you and I have talked extensively about the fact that Azrael can take this shape to me Azrael is like the amalgamation of all of our dead, right? And when you sit at bedside with someone who's dying, they see the people who've come before them. And to me, that's how Samael shows up, right?

Samael shows up as. A sister or a parent or a child who proceeded you in death and is [00:17:00] what you need and comfort. So one of the things that jumped out in Samael's writing to me was that concept of gentleness. and the idea that, there's such kindness and such gentleness in the process of helping people leave their bodies that are often wrecked with pain, that are often incapable.

Like the reason someone's dying is because the body is incapable of holding the soul anymore. And so the, the gentleness that happens when someone dies. the quiet that descends is, a gift often. And so a, so much of that resonated, that idea of curiosity. I find that, there are a lot of times where I feel like I get to, offer Azrael, like, you don't have a body and I do.

So let me show you. This is what the [00:18:00] sunshine feels like in my hands. This is, this is cool water. Isn't it wild?

So I don't know if that's, um, exactly, you know, the answer to your question, but I do think of Azrael as many faceted. and I have a piece that I would love to read about Azrael if. If you would like 

Tava Baird: to, yes, please. Oh, absolutely. You'll, you'll know Samael calls Jennifer Jurlando, the poet. Um, you guys have gotten really used to him calling Jennifer Taylor, the singer over the years.

And, uh, so Jennifer Jurlando has acquired the nickname of Poet, and you're going to see why. In just a moment, 

Jennifer Jurlando: I'm going to apologize if my voice is anything less than perfect. But, um, 

Jennifer Taylor: we are all about [00:19:00] imperfection. 

Jennifer Jurlando: Less than perfect. 

Jennifer Taylor: Let it Fly. 

Jennifer Jurlando: This poem is called Azrael and Thistle One. For years I have felt companioned by death.

At times he caught me unaware. And at others he's given me more time for goodbyes. I'm not sure which is worse. I have shouted at him, begged him to explain himself. I've raged and I've settled. I accepted his mark on me ages ago. The thing that makes a griever recognize me, I've accepted his company while I sit with people in pain while I talk with the dying.

When I sense someone is at risk, while I wonder about my own ending and the end of those I love, I accepted it as a gift, but I did not speak to him or listen for his response until tonight. Tonight I ask him to make himself known to give me a nudge, but I insist that he not [00:20:00] take up residency a firm boundary.

I ask that he not turn me into one of those horror movie versions of possession. The response is gentle, almost a laugh. And he tells me, reminds me really, that he has been inside my body before when he arrived during a hurricane. I feel a phantom kick in my belly. Outside. The storm blew and I rested next to my husband.

Anytime we thought she would arrive inside the baby, curled on her side, desperately tangled in a sea of knots, a noose around her neck. He had slipped in into the very body. I tried to ban him from tonight and he told her it was time. She was not interested. At first, she had to stay to see our faces, to dance, to sing, to look at the stars with us.

Death was patient [00:21:00] in many voices. He said, I will show you the stars little one on our way to the remembering, but will they hurt if I leave? They will, but will they forget about me? Absolutely not child. They will remember you until their very last breaths. And can I come with you when you return for them?

Can I meet them at their own ends? Oh yes. Little one. And you can visit in dreams. Choose the next babies. While those babies grow, you can whisper to them all that you know. Will it be scary where we are going? Not at all. You will remember when we arrive. And with that, she grasped the warm fingers and he lifted her into his arms wings, wrapping snug around her for the journey. Two.

When I read [00:22:00] my husband the poem about death coming to me and taking our baby, he wants to know why death is a he lately. He said, you've been more into all things woman. He's not wrong. Maybe he was easier for that peace. For the sake of my story, maybe death does not abide a pronoun. He is Thanatos. She is Kali.

He is Anubus. She is hell. He is Hades. She is the Morrigan. They are the Archangel Azrael. Perhaps they arrive in the form that is easiest to receive the greatest comfort to the dying, not myth and medias hooded cloak with glowing eyes. Sythe raised. Perhaps they arrive as a most cherished loved one. One who has been missed and who is trusted.

They arrive to accompany us on that last trip as the image of what we most need in their last days. The dead [00:23:00] do see those who have proceeded them. They whisper to them from their deathbeds. The wife of 70 years, the protective older brother. The child returns to the long grieving parent. They say, come with me.

Don't be afraid. I have missed you. I will hold you. You will not be alone. And there is ease there. Release they go. And they do not care if death is a he.

Jennifer Taylor: Wow. Thank you. I have just nothing but nothing but tears. And I've read those poems from you before and I was, I was moved to tears then. But hearing your voice, your voice carries all of the energy and all of the, the meaning and the depth. And it was a whole different level of that poetry. [00:24:00] Um, getting to hear you say it.

And I realized I did not make it easy for you to read it because anytime you would look up, I'm just like, sobbing. But that was so beautiful. Thank you. 

Jennifer Jurlando: Thank you. And that's I where, 

You know, my. My connection with Azrael goes way back before I knew there was an entity named Azrael. Um, and, you know, flipping the death card in the tarot or just understanding that having a loss, like the loss of my daughter opened me up in a way to that, that presence and to other grievers

Tava Baird: For people who are listening, I'm gonna warn you now. We're gonna have her read more things later. So get the Kleenex because I, and if you [00:25:00] were driving and you are now desperately looking for a handkerchief, just pull over buckle in.. here we go. I am super excited that Jennifer is working on her first.

Well, uh, of poetry coming up. Jennifer, would you like to talk a little bit about that process and how, as Azrael, your poetry as well? 

Jennifer Jurlando: Yeah. actually what happened is that I'm working on a project called Azrael's Hope Chest, and it's a collection. Um, I have a suitcase that has a collection of things that are, that my family knows that'll need when I die.

and I was talking to Tava about the fact that there's a letter in there for her that says, Tava, if I go before the poetry is published, publish it. And I think two days later I saw you and you were like. We are not waiting, we are publishing this book. [00:26:00]

Tava Baird: Yes. Yes we are. 

Jennifer Jurlando: And so anybody who's ever tried to say no to Tava about anything knows that that doesn't work.

so Tava and I sat and came up with a plan. She said, how many palms do you think you have? And I was like, I don't know, maybe 20. Um, and then I opened Google Docs and I was like, oh, or a lot more. And then later when I printed them out, I realized how many there are. But typically when something is really heavy for me and I don't know where else to put it, I go to the Notebook and let it find, its place there.

It's, the word body of of embodiment, I guess. Um, and I. I often feel like, a channel for that, right? That I, I look at it and I go, wow, did I do that? Is that mine? but the whole [00:27:00] process of putting things of, of taking this pain or joy or, um, wonder and putting it into a poem is just, I, I feel honored to be a piece of the process of watching it happen.

Um, and I'm hopeful that in some of those pieces, other people see themselves and they realize that they're not as isolated as they may feel, or they may think that they are. 

Tava Baird: I I also love if we have listeners down in the Richmond, Virginia area, which is where Jennifer Jurlando hails from. and Jennifer's very active on the poetry scene down there.

Would you mind, telling us a little bit about all of the little pots [00:28:00] you have your fingers in down in the Richmond area? So if somebody is interested in poetry or writing or just wants to come hear you, read in person, where would they go? 

Jennifer Jurlando: Um, well, I started reading with the River City Poets at their open mic nights, maybe a year and a half or two years ago.

and loved when, when I write a poem, I look at it and it exists for me and for the paper. And then for whichever of my sons I can catch to make, listen to it, or my husband who occasionally is like, how much longer is this? so it's very different to walk into a space and launch these words out. As Jennifer just said, it's a different experience to read it than it is to feel that someone is giving it to you.

And I love. [00:29:00] Watching. I, I love launching the poem out into the room and seeing it settle with people and seeing there's an energetic thing that happens. And I think Tava, you've acted in genuine band there. There's an exchange that happens with an audience when you gift them something, especially something vulnerable.

Um, so I've been reading with River City Poets for a year and a half, and, um, my friend Mary Beth Cox and I decided that we shouldn't always have to cross the river to do open mic, stuff. So we're actually in Chesterfield County and we just started the Chesterfield Poetry Collective and we're doing open mics.

In the area and we launched a community poetry, project that is random acts of poetry. So we have postcards that can be printed off where you can leave poetry in random places. I've left them at gas stations and, the dentist's office and, libraries. [00:30:00] So that's part of what we're doing.

We're also doing for folks who are a little too nervous about reading their poetry and exposing all of their guts and soul in front of a group of people, we're doing some table reads. so we are meeting in places where we can just sit in small scale with five or six people, read those poems together.

I have a friend who I met through Rich River City Poets, who's currently reading. Reading the whole stack of my poetry, doing some editing. And I also have a neighborhood poetry salon, which I would encourage everyone who loves words to do. bringing people into your home to share words is amazing.

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. 

Jennifer Jurlando: And there's always some food too. And it's so interesting to have people come and show that they're more than [00:31:00] what you see when you see the surface of them. Because when you write, you're exposing some really beautiful gem of vulnerability. And I just love that. 

Jennifer Taylor: I love, thank 

Tava Baird: you. 

Jennifer Taylor: So everything, everything that you just said, there are so many things in there that I wanted to, comment on.

And it even back to the, just about your poetry, you know, because one of the things that I love so much about your poetry is that it really seems to awaken in me what it is to be alive and in a body. And while, you know, when you talk about it, you know, and how it's, you're, it's the place that you're putting all of this pain and the weight and all the things that you're not sure what to do with.

And also the beauty there is so much beauty in the way that you even, that you translate the pain, you know, [00:32:00]even the pain has this, beauty to it that you really, bring out. And it helps me to appreciate being in a body.

And I think so much of what I learned from you and what I get to pick up from being around you and hearing you speak and reading your poetry is that being so intimately connected with death. And that process really brings out this profound love and appreciation of life and the gift of being in a body.

And I think that is so often, especially in the metaphysical kind of world, is so often missing because the idea is that out there is all this amazing stuff. You know, we're, we're traveling, we're reaching out, we're connecting with all of these things. But what you really bring in so much is that bringing it into.

The body and what a gift it is to be here. And all the little [00:33:00] nuances, like you were saying, like the sun on your skin or what cool water feels like. And there's so much of what it really is to be fully alive in all of the aspects of that, that really comes through in your poetry.

And I appreciate so, so profoundly. 

Jennifer Jurlando: Thank you. I, a lot of what, like, I am very death focused, um, largely because of my work and because of my calling, but also I push people a little bit to think about their death because I think it makes them better at life. and I've heard a lot of people. I love spiritual people who are like, ah, just throw my body in the garbage when I die.

It's just a thing my beautiful soul will have left. and Tava and I, when Tava has been my corpse, I've really made her think about like, but this machine housed your soul. Like this machine is a gift. And it allowed you to interact [00:34:00] with life in a way that you couldn't if you weren't embodied. Um, and I have another poem if you want it.

Jennifer Taylor: Oh, 

Tava Baird: absolutely. And, and I'm wondering if you take requests too, because, 

Jennifer Jurlando: do you take requests? What's your request? 

Tava Baird: I want wild to get in here. 

Jennifer Jurlando: Alright, well first, because it's, so, it's 

Tava Baird: kinda the one about the kitchen counter. What's that? I want the kitchen counter, 

Jennifer Taylor: what it was like poetry day or something 

Jennifer Jurlando: like that.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well I'm gonna do the one that's closest to what Jennifer was talking about, about Embodi. Okay. I have a friend named Robert Smith who, um, I was a nanny first children when I was in college, and he's like the wisest, most brilliant soul in the world. and I wrote this for him a year and a half ago or two years ago.

and so it's called, I want to Live More. I want to live more, which is not to say I am [00:35:00] avoiding death. Oh no. I have plans for my death. That energetic liberation from the machine that has faithfully housed my soul these 50 years, I am looking forward to that time when I am unbound, untethered free when I can ride fat raindrops from the clouds squealing all the way down until I land with drama on skylights and roofs, maintaining my customary habit of noise, reminding my people of how I loved a good storm slipping chilly down their colors, their souls will recognize me there and think, you pest, I will land soft on their cheeks as a snowflake, as my dead have visited me, bringing kisses and joy.

As wind, I will caress their cheeks, blow the hair of my beloved up and around until they giggle and bliss as smoke from a fall fire. I [00:36:00] will wrap them up and let them carry me with them it as music. I will visit their dreams. This they may think reminds me of her before then I want to live more. I want to roll in the grass on autumn days, laughing with friends and pondering the point of all this our place in the big plan.

I want to dance in the kitchen to techno songs with questionable lyrics, gyrate, and laugh until I'm out of breath. I want to drink cold water with grapefruit, peel, and herbs for my garden, A tea bag and a hunk of quartz for good measure. Eat chocolate, bake bread. Breathe in the scent of kitchen love. I want to wear the jewelry made for me.

With loud colors or all black. Let my hair curl and blow, walk with a sway. I want to read all the books, living other lives, laughing and crying and yearning. I want to sit in space [00:37:00] with people's feelings, ease their hurt with attentiveness, collect their tears of grief and joy. I want to feel the weight of my skin on my body, the pull of my muscles when I move, just so I want to feel the fact of my breath, the way my body moves and response to it.

Expansive, rising and falling, continuing on. Until then, I'll keep an eye on the sky. I will plan. I will live.

Jennifer Taylor: That's really beautiful. Thank you. That's 

Tava Baird: incredible. Thank you for people, for people who are not in the Richmond area, I just also wanna let you know Jennifer's got a Patreon and she puts a lot of poetry on that Patreon, and it is like a little gift every time I open my email and see that there's a new post from Jennifer Jurlando.

So I [00:38:00] would very much like to say Treat yourself, get on Jennifer's Patreon. and Jennifer, how could they find you on there? 

Jennifer Jurlando: Um, if they look, if you go to Patreon, whether you're already a member or not, you can look up just my first and last name and it pops up. membership is optional. and there's a few different sections of the Patreon.

I have a blog that I post, my death work. Um. Sort of thoughts and processes on. I have my poetry on there. I have, some of my poetry being read, and I also have one that's called a poetry share. the poetry share is people reading poems to me, and I love it. Love it. Tava was my first guest and I asked her to read me a poem and she read one of mine, which was lovely and so [00:39:00] cool and strange.

It's really strange if you're, a writer to hear someone else speak your words. you did it beautifully. Thank you. Tava. Um, and, uh. The, the fun thing about being read to, like, I have always, always loved being read to, but having people read poems they've written or poems that move them, I think is really important.

I think we're, we're poetry deprived and we could all use that like sort of opportunity to connect with the things we don't always say that we feel. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. And I love your random acts of poetry. I think that is absolutely fantastic. Oh, I would love for that to just, take off and be everywhere. I mean, how amazing to be like at the gas station and discover a poem.

Jennifer Jurlando: Yeah, it's um, it's a fun, I [00:40:00] think it's a fun idea. Um, I love the idea actually of kids. Getting their hands on it. I would be so thrilled even to find like a Roses or red violets or blue, like somewhere greeting me. It would just make my day. I could just see the handwriting on it. So, um, I may see in the spring if I can partner with some of the local schools to get the kids doing that.

Tava Baird: That would be amazing. Would 

Jennifer Taylor: be nice. Isn't 

Tava Baird: so cool. the first poem that you read about Azrael's visit just sort of in my mind, leads me through to ask about the soul community death care. would you mind speaking a little bit about the launching of that and what it is? 

Jennifer Jurlando: Yeah, so, um, my daughter who I lost and who that poem is about was named Thistle.

it has been. My honor. Woo. It's [00:41:00] been my honor to live her legacy, right? She didn't get a life outside of what she lived in my body. and when I have been a comfort to Grievers and when I have been able to walk kids through their grief or older folks through their grief, or I'm sitting in the, you know, in the airport and someone starts talking to me about their spouse who died, all of those things have always felt like a piece of her legacy.

and I would say in the last year, it's become really clear to me that I need to, to do more of that. On a regular basis. So actually this is my last month in my job, job, what I call money. Yay. 

Jennifer Taylor: Congratulations. 

Jennifer Jurlando: Thanks. I'm kind of excited about it and the people I work with are not, I can 

Jennifer Taylor: see [00:42:00] why, 

Jennifer Jurlando: but I have loved, I've worked as a vocational case manager for almost 14 years.

I love that work. I think it was a space where I could show up for people who were grieving their function and their independence and different aspects of their ability, um, and provide them with a support and remind them that they had all of these other things to contribute. but I would say, I went into 2025 with a request for the universe that I find that I find a place where I was most needed, that I could act on behalf of the universe 

in my full capacity that I was where I needed to be when I needed to be there. and I sat that January of 2025 Valley Haggard and I had like a little ritual burn [00:43:00] and we sent our requests to the ancestors and to the universe. and later in the year Valley invited me to, fertile ground and we went into your power of story.

And I had gone to fertile Ground. Like this is gonna be like, kind of like anthropology. I'm gonna watch the people and see what they do and like, I'll just be an outside observer. Um, and then I got there and I was like, these are the best fucking people. Sorry. Now you have to put the explicit tag nuts.

Tava Baird: We'll, anyway, it'll be fine because we're gonna make you read the counter poem later and that's gonna require it on its own. 

Jennifer Jurlando: Um, but I, you know, I thought I could show up in the space and having made that request, I could still sit on the outside. Um. [00:44:00] And I remember walking by you Tava, and you were making pops, and I texted my husband and I said, there is some shit going on here that would get a witch burned in Salem.

And he was like, question mark, question mark. Um, but when Power of Story came up, I was like, yeah, I like to write. I'll do power of story. Um, Val and I stomped down and there was one other person in Power of Story. It was the first one that you did. And you sent us down into the woods to write on a piece of paper.

All of the things that, the ways the world told us that we weren't enough and the ways that we told ourselves we weren't enough. Um, and it was so powerful and important because then that, you know, there's a whole, the whole ritual that followed and then being in this space with like. Feeling completely [00:45:00] enveloped in the song that Keith and Jennifer were putting together, right?

What they were channeling and bringing through, and then Samael's words of this journey with Lilith. Um, it changed something in me. Um, and a lot of this past year has been about recognizing wisdom when wisdom's dropped in my space, right? not that I've learned something I didn't know, but that I've been reminded of something that I did know.

And that's what that power of story felt like to me. And that's what so much of, like reading the Book of Samael and, um, finding different things about Azrael as an entity as. Like, I've been companioned by death, but now I have something to call death, right? I have a way to interact with death and I can do it [00:46:00] right.

I'm allowed. It doesn't make me crazy loco, it doesn't mean that I'm not to be trusted. It just means that the way that I'm gonna interact with life and death and the universe is maybe not aligned with religion or whatever else, but it, I'm not gonna beat myself up for being sure of my place and what spirit looks like and sounds like to me.

So, um, all of that made me feel like it was time to probably start doing a little bit more death work. Um, I have taught a class at VCU on death and dying for many years. Um, it's for. Counselors to be, and half of the class is wrapping their brains around their own mortality because you really need that to be able to serve people who are in grief [00:47:00] to, to hold their story as their story and not bring your own into it.

So you have to have yours sorted out. so we do a lot of that. And then a lot of counseling, you know, training as well. the grief support groups have been really important to me, but I've been doing everything concurrent with work, and now I feel like I need to do the work that is aligned with what my passion is and where I feel like I need to be.

So I had decided I was gonna come up with a company, and that. I was going to do death doula work and do community, education events like the mock home funeral that Tava was my corpse for. You know, when you say I made you a corpse, it sounds like I'm more lethal than I am. 

Tava Baird: It's always good for the world to think you're slightly dangerous, so, you know.

Jennifer Jurlando: Alright, I'll take it. Um, but, I do a lot [00:48:00] of events that help make the community think about mortality and also give them information. So the mock home funerals, the, like I've done a lot of shrouding workshops that bring folks out to, talk about how they would want their body shrouded, what material would be important to them, how to personalize this thing that you're gonna.

Make that final travel with, right. Um, so I do a lot of community e events. I'm hoping to do some more teaching and things and some death doula work, but I had no name. Um, and then a friend said, you know that it's Thistle Community Death Care. Right. And I was like, I had no idea that's what it was.

So that's how the name came. And I have [00:49:00] a former student who's a graphic designer who copied my tattoo and made it into my logo. And, I'm off and running, I guess as of April 1st. This'll Community Death Care will be my job. 

Tava Baird: Fantastic. Now you do have. You do have a couple of appearances that I wanna plug.

in June, Jennifer will be kindly traveling down to the Winchester area to do a mock pagan home funeral at the lovely Haunted Inn that we talk about all the time in Clearbrook, Virginia. and it is, the Dark Flower Collective is hosting it. That's the group that I run down in this area. So if you are in driving distance to, Winchester and it's closer for you than Richmond, just jump on tavaBaird.com and go under events.

And I'm trying to remember exactly what day it is. I know it's at the end of the month. 

Jennifer Jurlando: It's the 28th of June, I believe, 

Tava Baird: [00:50:00] the 28th of June. You can come to one of these, uh, mock pagan home funerals. And if you are one of these people who is really interested in becoming a death worker, becoming a death doula, this would be a fantastic event for you to come to because Jennifer talks, about both sides of it, about sort of the practical.

Side of someone has just died in your home. how do you handle that? And talks about green burials and all of these things. And at the same time, there's also the ceremonial side. and then Jennifer is also teaching. I know a lot of our listeners, we've had, Liz and Cael on from Fertile Ground Gathering.

We had Liz on a few weeks ago to talk about her art process. Uh, Jennifer Jurlando is returning. Not as an anthropology observer, but as a teacher this year so that someone else can [00:51:00] walk by her and go, man, there's some shit that would get people burned in Salem and texted to their husband this year. she is teaching at the fertile ground gathering as if you didn't, and power of Story is happening there as well.

Mm-hmm. If you wanna get both Jennifer's in the Samaele location, you need to get your tickets to Fertile Ground Gathering. And again, there's a link for that on my website, or you can just google Fertile, fertile ground gathering. But Jennifer, would you mind talking a little bit about the class you'll be doing there?

Jennifer Jurlando: I would not mind at all. I'm gonna add one more. So April 4th, I'm gonna be at Wilder Grove doing, oh, that's right. Another mock funeral. I'm gonna be talking about sort of specifically about what. The landscape looks like for Pagan folks who have and have not made any proper preparations for the end of life.

[00:52:00] So as I've started to work with home funerals specifically, but also with people who are trying to wrap their brains around the mortality. There's the ideas that they have, and then there's this like, concrete list of junk we have to do, right? So you talked about body care. Body care is one piece, what our rights are.

and ritual is another piece, but as I've talked to Pagans, what I've figured out is that there's a lot of disconnect between what people want and what they're actually getting. So for a witch. Who is in the broom closet and who hasn't talked to anyone about maybe their, maybe they've dedicated themselves to Hecate or to the Morgan or to Anubis or whoever.

and that's been their life and they have decades of [00:53:00] practice, right? A heathen who feels connected to Loki, whatever the case may be, if they haven't communicated that to their family, they're getting the Latin mass. and I think they're are, I think it's a shame, really. and there are a couple of ways of.

Dealing with it. There's the come on out of the closet, darling, and let's get everything documented. and for people who can't, let's figure out a way of giving you a ritual that actually honors what your soul and your hopes are outside of the body. So the workshop that I'm doing at Wilder Grove is very much about like, here's what you might wanna think about.

This is a mock funeral. What kind of ritual would you like? it's for planning. We're taking it a step further at fertile [00:54:00] Ground, and The workshop that Tava and I are doing together, is more about what to do when you get to that place where I need to make a decision about what I want at the end of life, and my family is going to.

Bless me and put me in the ground under a cross, whether or not I believe in that thing. and we're gonna talk about reclaiming that. and either making sure that you have all the documentation so that that thing you don't want doesn't happen to you. I will harp, I will harp, or if you have, so I, I have a friend who comes to my reiki circles with me, who told me about a situation where one of his friends just was not ritualized in any way, aligned with what his belief system was.

And it was really infuriating to me and of course to the friend. And I started, I [00:55:00] think I went to Tava, like, what can we do, Poppet, queen? and so we decided that maybe the thing to do would be to reclaim the right. By creating like, an effigy for that person. And that if we create a ritual doll, it can serve two purposes.

We can either say my family is going to do what they want to do with my body at the end of my life because it's the thing they, it's the only way they know to be right. I'm going to make this doll to represent myself, and I'm going to hand it to the person who knows my spiritual work best. And I'm going to say, please take this and this is the way you're going to mark my spirit when I'm gone.

So [00:56:00] that's one way that they can be used. They can also be used. To reclaim for the person who didn't get what they would have wanted and to say, I'm going to ritualize you the way you would've wanted to be ritualized. So that's our light and fun busting out of the chrysalis, fertile ground topic. But I do think, like for me, having the suitcase, having the Azrael's Hope chest sitting there in my living room means that my family knows when I die what to do.

My shroud is there. I have letters to the people I love there. There's inks that Tava has made for me, um, and directions on what to do with them. Right? So that is a burden that I don't worry about. And if at the end of my life my family is like, she was such a pain, we'll just cremate her and call it a day, right?

Then I [00:57:00] will still cross. Thinking like, all is well, I will be with Azrael. I'll have other things to worry about. But, um, you know, I do feel like it's important to kind of wrap your brain around that stuff so that you can move forward and enjoy your life as it is, knowing that it's not gonna be so, like, the decisions aren't gonna be so horrendous.

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. I think that's a real gift that you give to your family and that you're teaching other people to give to those behind you because there are a lot of decisions that are made when you know someone passes, especially if it happens suddenly. And when you're grieving, that's a lot to add to it of trying to make everything.

Just right. You know, if you did really know the person's spiritual path and you really want to honor them, sometimes the, it seems like the decisions for [00:58:00] me in those moments of, and you know, you typically have a very short period of time in which to make those decisions.

Um, there's so much added weight and pressure to making sure it's like, I have to make the right thing. I want to do it all right. To really honor this person. And having that person having already gone through and really thought about and said, this is what I want. It is such a gift for those who are willing to honor exactly what it is that they believed to be able to know, yes, okay, I know doing this is what they wanted.

And there's a huge amount of relief and comfort in that for those that are still here and that are grieving the passing. 

Jennifer Jurlando: I also think if you have any kind of a like ambivalent or dysfunctional relationship with family members, none of us do. Right? None of us have that. Of course not. But um, I think often you're like, oh, I can maybe [00:59:00] fix the fact that I didn't speak to them for 10 years by giving them like, the biggest, most elaborate sendoff, whether or not, then it's about the, the, then it's really about the person trying to make things better and not about the person who's died.

Um, so there's a lot of fun dynamics at end of life. 

Tava Baird: Yeah. so I have a problem with having serial serious, illnesses. I mean, I've had all kinds of surgery and all sorts of fun things and, When I volunteered to be the corpse at some of your mock pagan funerals, it, you went through this whole meditation with me on what did I want that to look like.

And you know, while I'm a pretty with Samael, I am a pretty death positive person anyway. But I hadn't never thought about all of that. And now, like, I have my shroud, you know what I want painted on [01:00:00] my skin, you know it all. And I cannot tell you the peace of mind it gives me to look at my husband and say, if something happens to me, all you have to do is open my phone and call Jennifer Jurlando.

'cause she's already buried me three times. You know, like, 

Jennifer Taylor: so she's got this down path 

Tava Baird: she knows. She's like, that's not the shroud. That's the shroud. Okay. You know, and it's, it's. You know, that's such an incredible, an incredible gift. And I know a lot of people think of, you know, death work as it's really heavy and stuff.

But one of the things I love about you, like guys, Jennifer has a term, she calls hauntable offenses, and it's one of my favorite things ever. So Jennifer, would you like to share what a hauntable offense is? 

Jennifer Jurlando: Sure. So these are like the end of life deal breakers, the things that are like. No way. No. How so? If you're claustrophobic, then the idea of [01:01:00] being in a vault, a concrete vault or something might be the thing for me.

My family, if they were here right now, they'd be like, yeah, yeah, we know. No bra, no embalming. Those are my hauntable offenses. If they bury me in a bra, I will come back as a toe cramp or an eye twitch or something super annoying. Um, not, not devastating, not spooky, just really annoying. And they'll be like, damn it, mom, I'm sorry about the bra.

They may want to disinter me and take the bra off because I'm gonna be that annoying. hauntable offenses. Yeah. 

Tava Baird: This in your vernacular, uh, hauntable offenses. 

Jennifer Jurlando: I taught a class at the University of Richmond in their lifelong learning group. And, It was two days, two and a half hours each day. And by the end, they were all using that phrase and I was like, 

Jennifer Taylor: work here is done.[01:02:00]

Tava Baird: So, so Jennifer, can you talk about, because I know we have people listening who are gonna want to hear this, if somebody does want to follow in your footsteps, you know, they want to, learn about working with people from a grief aspect or become a death doula, or just explore that possibility, where do they start?

Jennifer Jurlando: Well, I think, um, like me, a lot of people are interested in death work because they've had an experience where they were supported by a good grief counselor or their, their family had. And my younger brother, Jonathan, died 15 years ago. And the people who were at the hospital supporting him were phenomenal.

there's always something in retrospect. You look back and you're like, I wish I had done this thing. when our daughter died, I delivered her stillborn at 39 weeks. And, we didn't know what to do. [01:03:00] One of the things that I regretted was not having washed her. So when my brother died, one of the things I took the time to do was wash his face and wash his hands and clip some of his hair and take time with his body.

It felt really important to me. and all of those pieces have built into why I wanted to do death work. it's really sacred space. It's really a gift to sit with someone at the end of their life to talk to them about things that they don't wanna talk to their family about. You are, when you're losing someone you love, you're losing one person.

And when someone has a terminal diagnosis and they see that the end is coming, they're losing everybody. They're losing every single one of their people, and they don't wanna burden anyone with what that feels like. So for me, one of my favorite things is to sit with someone who's at the end of their life and just say, [01:04:00] tell me all the things.

Tell me what you think is next. Tell me what you're afraid of. Tell me how this process can be made easier for you. when I decided to go back to school, I got a master's degree in rehab counseling and did a psychotherapy internship at VCU. I didn't. Uh, go the counselor route. but I have continued to do support groups.

the other thing that I did was train as a death doula. So there are quite a few organizations that you can find that trained death doulas. I went through an elda, and an Elda did a beautiful training that was about, you know, helping people manage their big fears at the end of their life, their unfinished business, their regrets, and also helping support the family and know what to do, in the vigil and in the time after having a good [01:05:00] set of resources for people who are, who are recently bereaved.

Um, and so, you know, those are the things I think, like finding a good training. There's a. Really nice. Virginia Richmond especially has a wealth of death workers. So, I'm trying to start sort of a, a death care community where we know who to call for flowers and we know who can transport a body and we know which funeral homes do which things and who can accommodate which special requests.

and I'm trying to just put that community together, but there's also an end of life doula collective for the state of Virginia. And, they can be found on Facebook or through a Google search. and they're trying to get some research behind the value of death. Doulas, 

Tava Baird: Folks, we have more things that we want to ask of [01:06:00] Jennifer as we dive further into her work.

And also we have some really good poems just waiting to come into the room. But, what we're gonna do here is, Jennifer is gonna go ahead and sing us out of this episode and, we'll see if Samael has some closing words and then we'll see you again next week. 

Jennifer Taylor: Sounds good. 

Jennifer Jurlando: Dang, I hate a cliffhanger as your, as your number one fan 

Jennifer Taylor: now you know what it's like to be in the cliffhanger and be like, we really are gonna have to extend this.

Another 

Jennifer Jurlando: pretty mad. Yeah, it's the, every, the on poetry on my poetry day poem. 

Jennifer Taylor: Alright, well see that's, worth waiting another week for. 

Tava Baird: Right. 

Jennifer Taylor: And we're so lucky we don't have to wait. We just get to wait, you know, 15 minutes and We'll continue the conversation.

Jennifer Jurlando: Thank you so much for inviting me. I have loved [01:07:00] this day. 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh, 

Tava Baird: I'm 

Jennifer Taylor: having a blessed, yeah. This is so much fun. I've been really looking forward to this. I'm so excited that you're on and that we get to keep you around and keep talking. Let's see. So, 

maybe we'll invite Gabriel to kind of take us out of this or it looks like Tava, you have an idea? Oh no, I was, you look way too excited about this. 

Tava Baird: Y'all can't see, but, um, I've got my naughty face on, Jennifer's talked a couple times about her little grievers and, uh, Jen, you sent me a introductory song last night, that was from Gabriel, that was this joyful, sweet little song.

And I'm wondering if maybe something like that might be a nice send out, like just a, um, a, a bright [01:08:00] little burst for anyone who could use some sunshine, especially our, the young ones in our community. 

Jennifer Taylor: Sure. And this, so did you want me to do like that specific one or 

Tava Baird: what Whatever comes through, but 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh, okay.

It just, all right. So not, not necessarily doing that one, but just, 

Tava Baird: it doesn't have to be the exact one lines of 

Jennifer Taylor: something light 

Tava Baird: and, and if it sounds just like that one, yeah, that would be fine too. But I just, there is this, yeah, there's this bright. Happy little song that Jen sent me last night that I adored.

And I just keep thinking how, um, how what a sweet, wonderful thing that might be for all the little grievers that, uh, Jennifer Jurlando has worked with. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. I am determined to make that into a little video that can be shared like a, um, I don't know, like an Instagram video or something like that, or the Facebook that people [01:09:00] could show that could do along with it, because it has motions that go with it, and the motions are really important and they're energetically tied to what you're doing and actually doing like this energy work thing for yourself, and it's super quick and easy.

So, um, I'm determined to put that into a little video so people can get the, motions and be doing all of that. And maybe we'll put that out as like bonus material or something too. Um, okay, so let's, let's see what happens. I will always be, I'll always be there. You never have to wonder. You can know. I'll always care. I'll always be, I'll always [01:10:00] be there. I know

you.

I know

you,

I'll always be, I'll always be there. I will wrap my arms around you and I'll hold you when you're scared. I'll always be, I'll always be there.

You're home. You're home. You're Home.[01:11:00]

Oh, that

Jennifer Jurlando: you're amazing.

Tava Baird: We're gonna have to put a warning at the beginning of this podcast that it is a large box of Kleenex level podcast between the poem and that sweet little song. 

Jennifer Taylor: thank you both for being so incredibly patient. I do not usually get, I, I don't normally.

Bring through songs in that way where I get words and have to sort of [01:12:00] remember them. And, but I think the, the presence of Jennifer, I mean, between the two of you, like you are both so much word and uh, and I'm sure you help, really help me who is typically not having of the words as you can tell, but Gabriel very much likes that.

So the idea that you guys, I think were here helping to bring that through. So that was, I should have said that I guess specifically ahead of time, but that was Gabriel's song to everyone.

Tava Baird: A little bit more from Samael, if you all would like, 

Jennifer Taylor: um, 

Jennifer Jurlando: oh yes. 

Tava Baird: The Angels of Death are no strangers to you friends. We walk the same common roads. You walk every day, but we stop. Stop next [01:13:00] to the deer. Killed by impact in the night stop by the house. The ailing mentor. Stop by the place where the young parents travel to mourn.

Stopped by the collision of metal, twisted with bone. We are not there to take, we are there to hold space for the soul. They look right through us. The embodied many fear to meet our gaze and shy away from the place where we stand. We are not thieves nor monsters. We carry in our beings, released from pain.

Hope for something better. A remembering. A reunion. And we sing for those who have crossed and those who will soon cross. To recognize [01:14:00] our presence is a brave thing. An acknowledgement that you too are something more. Lend your voice to our chorus and comfort those soon to travel. Become as an angel embodied and reach out your hands to bridge the gap towards the beyond.

Jennifer Jurlando: Beautiful. 

Jennifer Taylor: Wow. 

Tava Baird: So friends, this concludes part one of, Are Jennifer Jurlando interview. Stay tuned for next week's episode, Jennifer Jurlando, two Electric Boogaloo, uh, available on your favorite channel. Uh, no. All jokes aside, Jennifer's book, no Mistakes Were Made will be out later [01:15:00] in 2026. And if you think I am not going to go to the mat, making sure she gets an audio version made, then you've got another thing coming 

Jennifer Taylor: and we will put links to all of her, materials, all of the ways that you can access her wisdom and, connect with her in the show notes.

So be sure to check those and we will, go back and update that when the book is out as well, so that if you're coming to this later on and you don't have to wait, then you'll be able to go in there and be able to have a link to get that book 

Tava Baird: you next week. 

Jennifer Taylor: Thank. 

Thank you. 

Tava Baird: Thank you for being here with us.