Corn Mother, Ancestral Tending, and the Many Faces of Guadalupe with Alicia Enciso Litschi

Sometimes the relationships that shape us begin long before we have words for them.  In this first conversation with Alicia Enciso Litschi—the Wayward Curandera—Jennifer and Tava follow the threads of Corn Mother, Our Lady of Guadalupe/Tonantzin, ancestral memory, and the intelligence of the land. Alicia shares the stories, relationships, and unexpected spirals that have shaped her work, inviting us to consider how connection may find us through art, lineage, the places we love, and the questions we are finally ready to ask.

Please note: this episode begins with an extended energetic musical transmission, including periods of quiet space.

WATCH THIS EPISODE on YOUTUBE 

Journey Through This Episode

00:00 — Welcoming Alicia Enciso Litschi

02:35 — Ancestral Tending, Corn Mother, and Offerings to Place

07:30 — A Solar Doorway Opens

10:00 — Musical Transmission

25:10 — “Sing, Shine, and Burn”

34:10 — Corn Comes Down from the Stars

37:20 — Guadalupe, Tonantzin, and the Stars

45:25 — A Mother of the People

53:00 — Finding Corn Mother

59:30 — Beginning an Ancestor Practice

01:03:00 — The Spiral Path of Ancestral Tending

01:09:15 — Ways to Work with Alicia

01:17:00 — “Awaken”

Work With Alicia Enciso Litschi

•  Ancestral tending work, individual sessions, groups, and writings https://www.waywardcurandera.com/
• Alicia’s writings, including stories of Corn Mother and Guadalupe. https://www.waywardcurandera.com/soulstories.html
• Corn Mother Writings
  Stories and reflections from Alicia's journeys with Corn Mother. https://offeringsforcornmother.substack.com/

Specific Stories Mentioned :

• Jenn mentions: When People Confuse Guadalupe for Mary

https://www.waywardcurandera.com/soul-stories-for-las-madres/when-people-confuse-guadalupe-for-mother-mary

• Alicia mentions a connection between Corn Mother and the Pleiades.  This came from her friend Jade Wah'oo Grigori and his story:

Tears of the Blue Corn Maidens:  https://jadewahoogrigori.bandcamp.com/album/a-shamans-tales-stories-and-songs-from-an-american-shaman

Musical Transmissions

• Opening transmission with Corn Mother, Tonantzin, and the energies that gathered around the conversation
• “Awaken” — a channeled song from Archangel Michael and a nature spirit teacher, shared at the close of the episode https://amnivara.bandcamp.com/track/mystic-fire-2025-ritual-awaken

With Jennifer

• Private Soul Resonance Sessions, Reiki training, channeled sound offerings, and more through Amnivara
  https://amnivara.com/
• Healing music and channeled recordings from Jennifer, including “Awaken”
  https://amnivara.bandcamp.com/

With Tava

• LIlithian Day Magic Classes, workshops, readings, books, folk art, and more from Tava Baird
  https://www.tavabaird.com/
• Tava’s books, handmade folk art, poppets, haunted dolls, magical tools and more
  https://darkflowerbooks.etsy.com/

Please remember this podcast is for inspiration, reflection, and entertainment only, and is not medical, psychological, or professional advice.

We are two friends sharing personal experiences and evolving perspectives as we learn and grow. This is not a substitute for your own discernment, inner wisdom, or qualified professional guidance.

Take what resonates, trust your intuition, and seek licensed support when needed, always honoring your own inner knowing and personal truth.

Thank you joining us today, you are a valued member of our tribe!  If you are enjoying the podcast, please consider telling your friends and sharing it on social media.  We would greatly appreciate your support in helping us reach others and spread our messages of worth, openness and exploration. 

Connect with your Hosts!

Tava Baird:   tavabaird.com or https://darkflowerbooks.etsy.com.

Jennifer Taylor:  Amnivara (previously Willow Ridge Reiki and Healing Arts)           https://www.Amnivara.com/

Transcript

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S4Ep18 Corn Mother, Ancestral Tending, and the Many Faces of Guadalupe with Alicia Enciso Litschi

Jennifer Taylor (2): [00:00:00] good morning everyone, and good morning to Tava Baird. And we have a very special guest for you today. 

Alicia: we have Alicia Enciso Litchi with us who I am so excited to get to spend more time with and get to talk with.

Jennifer Taylor (2): so good morning. I'll let each of you say good morning 

Tava Baird: Well, good morning, everybody. Thank you for coming back for another episode of our mystical madness. really looking forward to today because I believe that we are going to be talking about a topic that I know very little about, and so I am super excited to get to learn 

Alicia: Good morning, everyone.

I'm so honored and so excited to be here. I've listened to so many podcasts and, had so many amazing sessions with Jenn, and so excited to get to know Tava. So yeah, so [00:01:00] grateful. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): I have been really, really blessed, to get to work with Alicia, and our sessions have just been kind of mind-blowing and, getting to know her some personally and Alicia had mentioned to me that she had seen the Miracles episode where we were talking about Our Lady of Guadalupe and that whole, story, and I discovered 

thanks to Alicia, that there is a lot more to the overall deeper understanding of it. And we had really just very briefly touched on that story as a part of, a dream and I just still couldn't figure out why it was that I ended up led to that and that story. And now with Alicia mentioning that she actually 

has had a relationship with her for a long time and has entirely different, associations and things with her too than anything that we had read as [00:02:00] her just being, you know, like the Virgin Mary. realized that it was gonna be really important to bring her on so that she can share her real lived living relationship with her and add a little bit more information to the story as well.

So I'm really excited about that, and Alicia does some amazing work with ancestors and has a lot of just deep knowledge so actually Alicia will do a much better job of explaining and introducing what she does and what she, tends to focus on.

So maybe I'll let you do that, Alicia. 

Alicia: Sure, sure. Ancestors, ancestors, is a great umbrella though, because I think that can go in so many, directions. Um, but I do a lot of work with ancestral tending, which ends up connecting a lot to, connecting with the [00:03:00] land and the earth, in addition to my devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe, who actually overlaps quite a bit, we could talk about that, with Corn Mother.

And so I am a devotee of Corn Mother, and I have her here. We can talk about her. I have a little Corn Mother medicine doll that I travel with in a basket, and oftentimes she sends me on... She gives me certain assignments of visiting certain places and making offerings to the land. so there's all kinds of, of wild adventures, um, that- 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Oh, I can't wait to hear about them.

Alicia: Yeah. And so I work with people individually, in whatever way those themes may overlap w- with their own journeys, connecting with their own ancestors. And then I'm a psychologist sort of in another life too.

Tava Baird: I'm so excited [00:04:00] to hear more about Corn Mother because somebody gave me a little piece of antler with Corn Mother inscribed on it. And I didn't know really what it was. Somebody gifted it to me and I thought, "Oh, look at this lovely goddess," right? And it's been in my bone kit. Um, I don't know if she's in here right now because I just got back from traveling.

She might be... Oh. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Oh, that's amazing. 

Tava Baird: Yeah, she's here. Um, let me see if I can... She's very tiny- Oh my gosh ... so it's hard to see 

Alicia: So is that her image carved in? 

Tava Baird: I think so, yes. You can see- Oh, wow ... her and it, and then she's holding horn in both hands. It's hard to see because of the curvature of the antler. But I put her in my bone kit, [00:05:00] and, there are times when I am reading for people when at the end of the reading, after I call the ancestors in, um, Samael will tell me to gift a bone to the person that I'm reading for.

And what's really interesting is sometimes I will say, "Choose," and I've had several people put their hand over her and say, "I'm not supposed to take that one. She's supposed to stay," and then move on and take multiple others. Um, so it's really interesting. It's like she's sort of a staple of the kit, but I don't know very much at all.

So, I'm really, really interested in finding out more today, because she goes with me everywhere. She's about to go, um... I'm teaching two bone, reading classes at Free [00:06:00] Spirit Gathering. I leave next week. It's the 40th anniversary. It's like summer camp for pagans. Oh. And, and people- That sounds so fun

you, you don't have to identify as pagan. You can identify as just spiritual. But it is, on the land, outdoors, seven days. There's tons of classes, ritual, dance, and there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people at it. Probably at times close to a thousand. So she's going with me, and so I would love to know, to hear what you have to say about her.

Alicia: Well, my whole body is buzzing. I would be squealing. Um- 

Tava Baird: You can squeal. We, we like squealing ... 

Alicia: because, uh, Corn Mother's very connected to deer, and so it makes a lot of sense that she is on the antler. Mm-hmm. Um, and she's connected to Sacred Hunter. I just listened to your Sacred Hunter. Oh, wow. So, uh, there's a [00:07:00] lot, there's a lot that, uh- Yeah.

Corn Mother may, may wanna offer. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Yeah. We'll, uh- Oh, I'm so excited ... 

Tava Baird: we'll just sit this antler out here then for the duration of the podcast so she can be in your energy. Here we 

Jennifer Taylor (2): go. And so I'm thinking, um, it's probably time to sing and have ... bring in some energy and see, what Samael might have to say.

And I also have, like the whole back of me is starting to, like tingle and vibrate and yeah, um, maybe... It, it's funny, I was planning on inviting Tonantzin to come through, but I'm thinking, I don't know, maybe Corn Mother is, uh- 

Alicia: They may both ... like to come I mean, they're, they're very, they're very connected.

Um, Tonantzin's often depicted with a corn crown. Um, so yeah. [00:08:00] I trust, I trust. Yeah. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): All right. I will, transition here into song, and we'll see who's wants to come through. Iless- unless Samael had any sort of guidance where he was like, "Oh, no, do this." In which case we can do that. 

Tava Baird: No, the, the only thing that's interesting is I usually, when we're on the podcast, one of the ways that I kind of go into head space to channel is I draw spirals.

And so I started here as you were talking about singing, to draw, and this hasn't happened before, but um, today's spiral has solar attachments to it. Um, so I'm really curious to see what comes through because we're actually getting an alteration of the normal sort of tunnel I go down, [00:09:00] before he speaks.

So yeah, there's definitely a solar element to this. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): All right. Well, let's see what happens. 

Tava Baird: Buckle in, kids. This could be a fun one. Here we go. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): [00:10:00] [00:11:00] [00:12:00] [00:13:00] [00:14:00] [00:15:00] [00:16:00] [00:17:00] [00:18:00][00:19:00] [00:20:00]

Speaker 4: Ooh. 

Tava Baird: Good lord. Um, and I mean all of them, all the lords. Um,

Can, can I l- can you come back every week? I have so much stuff, including the answer to something I've been looking for for about a month and a half or two months, and I think it's, it's your presence today that, that changed that. 

Speaker 6: Aw. 

Tava Baird: But we can get into that later. Oh my God. Jenn, how are you?

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): I am altered I think is the, the best, uh, way I can describe it. Um, I've... Yeah, I, I've, I feel like I've [00:21:00] just been through some very profound, um-

Initiation maybe? Or, um It, it was so different. Everything was so different than usual. Like, I, I went to set up the stone circle, which lately has also included feathers, and but there were no feathers. It was like I had to get this seed. I don't even know what you call it. 

like a seed chime thing, And then I had all these components around the circle that have never been there, and they are all from, like, a different altar. Not like the Amnivara one with all the ones that I work with all the time, but one that I'd set up for Nyaka, which is, an organization that provides education and food and housing for [00:22:00] all of these, women and, children in, Uganda.

And there was a doll that was made by the women there that they had, gifted us. And so I had the doll as a part of it, and this spiral shell that's, like, kind of black and white spotted was a part of the circle. And, all sorts of stones that I never usually use, and an owl. This owl figure had to be sitting up above the others, kind of looking down, on the circle.

It was there were all these different things happening, and it took me a while to get into it because I kept feeling it was such a different energy than what I was used to. And it, it just took me a little bit to kind of get into it. And yeah, my goodness, I was, like, shaking something over my head and had a rattle in my left hand, and then was doing this, I call it the turkey stomp or, turkey [00:23:00] dance, where it's like reverse marching where you're marching, but the emphasis is on the knee coming up, not going down.

And it seems like the turkey energy comes in and raises. It's like it pulls the energy up from the ground. And yeah. Oh my goodness. And then it got, you know, it was quiet, and then I was just on my knees on the ground in this just profound gratitude for Corn Mother. It, it was just so overcome with gratitude and just this feeling of awe, and it had...

I, I can't really even put words to it, but I'm still not quite I'm still, I'm still altered. But it was amazing, really amazing. So I can't, wait to learn about her and learn more about whatever it is that everyone feels [00:24:00] Guided to share, and I can't wait to hear what Samael has to say. Oh, it's like, it's still, I-- like just breathing, like I'm not, I'm in my body differently, I think is the best way to say it.

Like I realized after whatever sort of thing I was doing with my legs and the rattles and all my voice when I was on the ground, I, I had this profound sense that I am, I am inhabiting my body in a different kind of way because of her presence. Like it, and I, I don't even know really how else to describe it

Tava Baird: I would very much like to bottle you if there's a way we could so that I could just 

Jennifer Taylor (2): You being Alicia. 

Tava Baird: Yes, Alicia. Um, I am getting the intense waves of energy even after the song, um, are still going on, but I'm not, like, crazy dizzy, and the [00:25:00] left-hand side stuff isn't happening, so that's very good. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Yeah. 

Tava Baird: I'm gonna try to make this as brief as possible, but some really interesting things came through.

so the first thing is Samael said unlimitation, and I tried to point out to him that I don't know that that's a word, but he doesn't care. Um , and then he said a teaching of black rooster bones. I don't know what that is. Um, but then he said, "There is a tendency in much of your culture for feminine energies to be associated with the night, the moon, the ocean, and the sacred dark.

But it is not always so in other places. This is why Eshet confounds the men of the northwest," 'cause we think she [00:26:00] got her start in Egypt where she's often described as just being of the south, right? And she, in that capacity was, we believe, a solar goddess. and it's true, when we look at most of Europe, there's this tendency to go bright, active.

That's kind of a, quote-unquote, male energy. Um, sorry to dive into traditional gender roles, ick. But, um , you know, too much. But then, um, we also, we do, we see a ton of goddesses from northern and western Europe in particular l- where, it's always the moon, the moon, the moon, the water, the water. And so he's saying there's a disconnect here sometimes in northern and western cultures where we have trouble seeing or putting feminine energy into a solar place.

So he continues, [00:27:00] "The activity and brilliance of the sun is routinely given to male energies among you. But in the south, the goddesses claim brilliance for their own. They are anything but passive. They are exactly as they choose to be. Now is an opportunity in the visitation of this holy woman to reclaim that While yin and yang are often encouraged to have strong boundaries, remember that nothing is pure.

Divinity is not stagnant. It oscillates between heat and coolness, activity and rest. The aim, as I have said many times, is balance. The walls of Eden will tell you differently, but remember this: your true nature is not to dim yourself. In truth, you have no limits to [00:28:00] expansion, so sing, shine, and burn. And then he said he was delivering a message from someone else, but did not name who it was.

But this was what he said. "A reassurance. The heat in the stones activates a connection, sets a border aflame. Born of heat and pressure, they had their conception in the liquid fire of the land. Hold them in your hands to speak and know that they are of the place."

And that was emphasized that they are "of the place." Now, I don't-- I think I mentioned this on the podcast, but you know me, my brain is oatmeal some days. about a month and a half ago, I do not do pendulum [00:29:00] work at all I've just never been drawn to it. I was at the opening of a friend's store in Winchester, Carrion Apotheca, and this pendulum caught my eye, and I became really fascinated with it.

And so I asked Nate, one of the owners, I'm like, "How much for the pendulum?" And someone that I was there with was also fascinated by it. And he said, "Oh, that's from an artist that, you know, it ca- it came with the store. Like, it came with the merchandise. So I'll give you a discount on it 'cause I probably won't...

I don't know if I'll be carrying them." So I bought it, got in the car to drive home, and Samael kept saying, "It's not for you. It's not for you." And I'm like, "Okay, well, w- w- why the attraction?" And he said, "You're supposed to study it and then give it away." [00:30:00] He wanted me to understand how it was constructed, like how a pendulum is made.

And I went, "Okay," and I took a bunch of photos of it, and then I contacted my friend who had been interested in it in the store and said, "I'm not supposed to have this. You're getting a present." And I passed it on to her This last weekend, I was down at, a lovely artist's retreat with Jennifer Jurlando, who a lot of you know, um, as she was getting ready to publish a book, and I did the illustrations for it.

And we were out on this 2,000 acre farm with the Rapidan River running right by and everything. And I got a huge talking to from Samael on the front porch, and he told me basically to get up and go out because he was gonna show me something. And, actually, Jennifer [00:31:00] Jurlando was inside having Reiki class with you, Jenn.

And I'm wandering around in the side yard in a daze. And he brings me to this little triangular stone and says, "Pick it up and take it home." And I came to understand that that was supposed to be the bottom of a pendulum. But I didn't know what the rest of the pendulum was supposed to look like. And while you were singing, its entire design came through.

So, um, I've gotta actually find the components and make this bad boy now. And at the end of it, he said, "South, south to break into manifestation." Now, get this. "The balance of the structures in their worship that point to the [00:32:00] sky." So that's a pyramid, right? And I've been to Central America and been to some pyramids there.

And they also have them in Egypt, right? We're looking at places of the sun or where goddesses are often more associated with the sun. South, south. So I think he's talking about the triangle in the pendulum is pointing south, and that that is somehow a balance to worship structures that are on the ground pointing to the sky.

A pendulum points to the ground, the others point to the sky. And then he said, "Ritual of triangulation before reading." I don't have a ritual of triangulation. But then he reminded me, so he often uses the eye as his symbol [00:33:00] He reminded me that often in our cultures, like on the back of a dollar bill, the eye is often inside a triangle.

So he had me sketch that, and he listed the sides as invocation, divination, and source. I don't know what that is right now, but that's a lot. Thank you for sticking with me through all of it. Um, I am so relieved to have a pendulum design because I didn't know what I was supposed to do. So thank you for sitting through all that 

Alicia: Wow.

Jennifer Taylor (2): So I know that was a lot that just got thrown at you. But I'm very interested to see if what, I guess [00:34:00] what came up for you in any of this or during that time, or anything that it sparked in you hearing, you know, the words of the song or something else that came through.

Anything that you feel like you'd like to share, Alicia, I'd love to hear. 

Alicia: Yeah. As you were singing, it was so moving. Um, and when you had the seeds, I guess they were the seeds that you were, um- Yes ... rattling over your head, There was something very profound that was weaving together for me. Um, I've always associated Corn Mother with the Earth, the divine Earth energies, and intelligences.

And it wasn't until I would say two, maybe two or three years [00:35:00] ago, I, I needed to have an MRI, and when I was in the MRI machine, this story... Often Corn Mother speaks to me through my writing, and so I get just sort of a whole lot of images and sensation, and then I have to go write, and then it'll start to take shape, and find words.

But what came to me in that MRI was this story that she told me. It was called The Corn Comes Down from the Stars: A Story for the People. and it's been this journey that has included this profound experience of working with you, Jenn, of actually starting to connect the, celestial realms to Corn Mother, because I'm so used to the Earth, sort of like the Earth energies.

Um, and so as you were dangling the seeds, I sort of felt this coming together of rising up from the Earth and then [00:36:00] drawing down from, the heavens. And then when you knelt down, I just felt this overwhelming emotion, just this swelling in my heart, and tears of just... There's just something about, um...

And maybe this is part of Samael's pendulum. I- there's something about the This, I just keep wanting to do this over and over again. Um

Jennifer Taylor (2): Yeah. That, yeah, 'cause, yeah, it's like this sky energy kind of coming down to the point and the earth energy raising up- Yeah ... to meet it in that kind of- Yes ... in between. 

Tava Baird: So we have a- Yes ... design of, you know, where we climb to the heights, we try to reach the sky, and then here is in the inverted pendulum s- which is bringing through [00:37:00] messages from somewhere else.

I'll be really curious. I mean, That's what I'm assuming this is, this hourglass shape with a dot at the center. Um, I don't know, man. This is very different. 

Alicia: Um, I mean, I think that Our Lady of Guadalupe also fits into this, kind of because- different traditions have different explanations for her.

And so her name, Our Lady of Guadalupe, that's most common was given by the Spanish, and named after, an apparition that happened in Spain, Guadalupe. But there's also no one's exactly sure what that was because Guadalupe itself is an Arabic word, um, that either means wolf river or hidden [00:38:00] river.

There's some debate about actually what it means in Arabic. Um, but there's an actual statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Spain, and she's a Black Madonna. Um, so Black Madonnas come with so much mystery. so this lady in Mexico was named after this lady in Spain who doesn't even have a Spanish name, has an Arabic name.

Um, and the lady in Mexico, the apparition that Jenn described in that Miracles episode, that took place on a hill where there used to be a temple. The Aztec people, the people who are called the Aztecs, but they're called the Mexica. so the Mexica people had a temple to the goddess Tonantzin, who was an earth mother, and her temple was on that hill, Tepeyac, [00:39:00] where the apparition occurred.

And the Spanish razed the temple as part of the invasion of what's now Mexico City. And so that mother was appearing on the place where her temple was. so people see that and think, well, it's Tonantzin. but this strange unfolding of the new story of Tonantzin is that then she was given this other name, Guadalupe, and so she walks with this multiplicity now.

Um- But the original point I was getting to is that so a lot of people see her as Earth Mother, um, 'cause Tonantzin was an Earth Mother of, is an Earth Mother of the Mexica. But then there are other people who see her as, connected to the star Rigel, and other people who see her connected to the Pleiades.

Um, [00:40:00] so her apparition took place at a time when the Pleiades are in view, especially in that part of the world. And so it's like she's Pleiadan, she's Earth, she's it feels like this, this mystery of the coming together Wow 

Jennifer Taylor (2): I am so fascinated by the fact that the name is actually originally Arabic.

I know Samael speaks in Arabic all the time and is- Yep ... always encouraging, Tava to learn Arabic, and these... that's really interesting that all of that ties back to Arabic as well. 

Speaker 6: Wow. 

Alicia: I feel like... And she's, I have her image here. This is the image that hangs in the Basilica in Mexico City, that is the miraculous image, that was imprinted on the [00:41:00] outer robe, the outer cloak that was worn by Juan Diego, whose indigenous name was Cuauhtlatoatzin, which means, he speaks like an eagle or talking eagle.

Um, so her- that's the image that hangs in Mexico City, but that image is also now in, Notre Dame Cathedral in France. And it, it's like, it's almost like she just is crossing back and forth- 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Yeah. Yeah, she's kind of coming up everywhere and- 

Alicia: Yeah ... 

Jennifer Taylor (2): sharing And it seems like in whatever kind of form maybe resonates most with the people- 

Alicia: With people

Jennifer Taylor (2): in the area. And the Wolf River or Hidden River I find really beautiful- Mm-hmm ... and powerful as well as part of the name. And [00:42:00] the star, when you were talking about the stars and also being, associated with the stars, if I remember, in the Tilma, there were stars, right?

the stars were specifically in that and the exact, constellations, that they were all arranged exactly the way they would've been at that moment.

Alicia: Yes. Yeah, her outer robe that is blue, has stars on it. And the piece with, connected to Samael solar connection is then she's surrounded by the rays of the sun. So she's, has stars on her cloak and then is just surrounded. It doesn't show in the image that I have here 'cause it's cut off, but there you can see little rays, so she's surrounded by the rays of the sun 

Tava Baird: So just briefly, because I'm a little bit familiar with the Pleiades, but I didn't really know, is it Rigel or Rigel?

How do you- 

Alicia: I don't [00:43:00] know how to say it. I know it's R-I-G-E-L. 

Tava Baird: L. So out of curiosity, I jumped on and just typed it in to see if anything came up, and I found this interesting. The first thing that it said was that it is the brightest star in Orion, who of course has sacred hunter connection as well. 

Speaker 7: Wow. Hmm.

Tava Baird: Which And you were talking about the corn mother and the deer and the sacred hunter connection as well a little while ago. So s- I think Keith is really gonna need to listen to this episode. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting, deer, the last thing I saw before I left the window this morning to like pull myself away and come in because it was so beautiful, there was a, mother deer and fawn, and, the baby was [00:44:00] nursing.

It was just standing out there- Oh ... and was nursing, and I was just standing there going, "Oh my goodness, this is the sweetest thing." And so I had just been standing there watching that, and that was the last thing I saw before I came in to podcast. So I thought it was really interesting all of the deer things that were coming in and the mother nursing out there.

Oh, 

Alicia: that's amazing. Mm. 

Tava Baird: I do find it so fascinating that it's an Arabic name, which, so then how did that get there? 

Alicia: Well, Spain, has a very complicated history and, was Muslim for- Mm ... a long time. Um- 

Tava Baird: And so that came on over Now I'm wanting to dive into, like, history more, and this is just really fascinating.

And the l- And the fact there's both sides of the ocean coming up [00:45:00] like that. 

Alicia: Yes. A lot of words in Spanish have, Arabic roots. Um, yeah, do- you can... There's, um, like the word almohada, which is pillow. If you look at the... Sometimes you can start to recognize sort of the, these spellings. It's like, "Huh, that is actually Arabic."

Um- 

Jennifer Taylor (2): That's really interesting. I didn't know that. 

Alicia: So- That's really neat ... in Mexico, they call the people, oftentimes the people themselves or, you know, those of us of Mexican descent will call ourselves Mestizos, which means mixed people. Um, because the Spanish came, and through the course of the invasion and colonization, then indigenous and Spanish combined.

Um, and there was quite a lot of African too because people were enslaved and brought. the indigenous population dropped [00:46:00] dramatically after the invasion because of so much violence and disease, but the Spanish had the need for labor, and so they brought enslaved African people.

And so the mestizaje, they call it the mestizaje, the mixing of people happened. Um, and so that's the other powerful piece that is connected to Our Lady of Guadalupe/Tonantzin, is that this image of her reflects a mixed people. and so Mexicans and people throughout the Americas have seen her as, 

A goddess of liberation. that she arrived, she arrived in 1531, which was 10 years after the invasion of Mexico City by Cortes. And so she arrived at a time of unimaginable genocide. and so her image [00:47:00] has been, an image of hope for liberation from colonizing forces throughout, throughout time, in over the last 500 years.

And so when the Mexicans fought for their independence from Spain, they had banners with Our Lady of Guadalupe. when the farm workers in California, the United Farm Workers were organizing, they would march, with Our, Our Lady of Guadalupe. And you can see she's definitely a lady of the people. Um, this, this mother, and this reflection of the complexity of even just how we look.

Um, right? And her name, the fact that her names are also mixed. She has mixed names. 

Tava Baird: Yeah. 

Alicia: Yeah. 

Tava Baird: That is fascinating. I'm really curious, um, I don't know at all. Um, say you were to go to [00:48:00] Mexico today, and you were to roll into a church. Is she represented there? And if she is, how is she portrayed? Like, is it, it's sort of done as this is just a different looking Virgin Mary sort of thing?

Or is there more of a nod to her history and her ancient roots? 

Alicia: She's everywhere. She's absolutely... In Mexico and even beyond the borders of Mexico, um, my, my family and I joke that if you were to be an inhabitant of another planet, or from some other realm and come to Mexico, you, just by looking around, you would assume that she is God Because she's everywhere.

She's just everywhere. So it'd be like, "Oh, this must be the deity of this [00:49:00] place." Because you see her in grocery store displays, they'll arrange the produce to be like Guadalupe, and you have key chains, and blankets, and towels, and bumper stickers, and paintings on the sides of mountains, and you just have sh- I mean, it's just like she's- She's everywhere

everywhere. She's everywhere. There's an old saying in Mexico that says even the atheists are devotees of Guadalupe in Mexico. That's 

Jennifer Taylor (2): awesome. 

Tava Baird: It's funny, I was too young to remember, but, um, my dad was in the military and when I was very little, we lived in Chula Vista, so just over- Oh ... the border in California.

Um, and my parents used to go to Mexico a lot, and there was obviously a lot of Mexican culture up in the community that I was a young child in. I think in my preschool I was one of, like, five or six of the kids who didn't speak Spanish. 

Alicia: [00:50:00] Uh-huh. 

Tava Baird: And I remember her image being all over, you know, whenever we would go over to go to a market or something for the day, and, like, drive down south.

And I just love that idea that she's the god of this place if you show up. 

Alicia: Yeah. And I do think, I mean, Mexico is a very Catholic nation kind of by... That's, that's how the people survived, is to just take on what was enforced by colonization. It's like that was a pathway to survival. But the Catholicism practiced in Mexico is very...

The, the indigeneity is just, is just right there. Um, right there. She's not the only... There's also ladies of the different places, and of this lake, and of this hill, and so it's a very crowded space because [00:51:00] there are still all of the, there's the connection to the deities of the land.

They just have assumed names that, um, happen to, to coincide with the saints and the ladies of Catholicism. 

Tava Baird: Right. We see that, I know, up in Ireland a lot too- Yeah ... and a little bit in Scotland where all the holy wells were rededicated to the Virgin Mary. But everybody knows they've been there since before the Romans.

And on Imbolc you're going out for, uh, you know, St. Brigid's Day, but really you're going to tie clooties at the well. And, you know, and stick your Brigid's cross behind the door to ward off fire. You know, it's you need to do what you have to do to, for your faith to survive. And so they- Yeah

take on different names. And, and you nod to the people doing that, but then the you're still going out to the stone circle to leave fruit for the fairies, you know? [00:52:00]

Alicia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. N- so that was- I was- Oh, go ahead. No, go ahead. I was just gonna say, that was the Catholicism I, I was raised in, so nobody ever taught me the name Tonantzin for her.

It was like, Our Lady Guadalupe, Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe. Um, but then thanks to a lot of, Chicana feminists, Mexican American feminists doing a lot of work sort of spreading this like, "Oh, let's just like scratch beneath the surface and we have another name here, Tonantzin." And so then, then a lot of people now call her Our Lady of Guadalupe, Tonantzin, or Tonantzin Guadalupe.

And so it's starting to evolve differently. Um- Yeah. 

Tava Baird: What a beautiful reclamation. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Absolutely. 

Tava Baird: That's incredible. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Yeah, I was thinking I would love to hear more about anything that you want to share about, your [00:53:00] experiences and, you know, personal experience with, what it maybe to you feels like connecting with her or how you might connect with her.

I think one of the biggest questions that I know Tava and I always get is, "Well, how do you know?" Or, "How do you connect?" Or, "What do you do?" Or, "What does it feel like?" Or "What is the relationship like?" and, anything that you wanna share about that with, Tonantzin Guadalupe or, Corn Mother.

I know Corn Mother is very near and dear to your heart, and certainly felt like, there was definitely an aspect, of her coming in. So any of that that you want to just share about, I know Tava and I don't really know much about any of that, so we would love to learn more and do them justice.

Alicia: I'd be happy to. Um, I think it's been a journey for me, too, because I, I did leave the Catholic Church, but that's how I had met her. I had known her through just the church I [00:54:00] grew up in, and so it took, it took some time to disentangle her from the church for me. but one of the, one of the things that...

I started just making altars to her, and just had her candle and then talking to her, and then it felt like this unfolding where then she just started to guide the next steps. And she's the one who led me to Corn Mother because I also... I mean, growing up, I... People grow up with corn. but it's like in Mexico and Mexican cuisine, corn is essential.

Um, not just tortillas, right? You have tamales, and there's all these beverages from corn, and just that smell. The smell of roasting corn does something to me somatically where it just feels like this deep home, this deep [00:55:00] homecoming feeling. And so just smelling or smelling tortillas, cooking, um, corn tortillas.

But I didn't ever think anything of it, um, growing up. It was just corn, maize. And so there was a period of time when I was a Buddhist and I was living at a Zen center studying to be a Buddhist priest, which I did not become probably in part to Corn Mother and Guadalupe. but I just when... In my downtime, I would do this little...

It's, um, art form where you have, like, a black piece of paper and just cut out images with a, with an X-Acto knife. and so it's very unforgiving because you cut something out wrong, it's like... I did try and, like, glue pieces back, but it does not work. Um- And I kept, I kept, creating images of Our Lady of Guadalupe with the rays [00:56:00] behind her, and then I would...

I kept messing up. I wanted to, like, put grass under her feet, and I kept making the blades of grass way too large. And so they started to just morph into corn, um, because the leaves were... It's like, oh, that's a corn leaf. It's not really a blade of grass. Um, and so I started just making over and over again this image of this lady walking in fields of corn, and I would give them away to people at the Zen center, and I just, like, kept making these.

I would set out to make something else, and this is what would come through, a lady walking through fields of corn. And one day my friend Sarah, who was a priest there at the time, told me, she's like, "Do you know you're making these images of the Corn Mother, right?" I was like, "Who's the Corn Mother?" And she's like, "You don't know who's the Corn Mother [00:57:00] is?

You're Mexican. Like, your corn came from Mexico." Um, I was like, "No, I have no idea who the Corn Mother is." And we were in New Mexico, which is a really, uh, a center place for the Corn Mother, too. And then I just started learning. I was like, "Oh, you have a name. Um, you have this whole- whole, there's this whole world of you.

You are, you are the world that I've already been living in, and I just didn't know you had a name and you were here this whole time. and so gradually, it's almost like this calling in of Tonantzin called in Corn Mother and how they overlap. Many artists, many Mexican artists portray Tonantzin with the crown of corn, or surrounded by corn, because the corn [00:58:00] did, as far as we can trace back, come from Mexico.

And the interesting thing about the grass of like, I wanted to put grass under her feet, corn comes from the grass family. 

Speaker 4: Yes. 

Alicia: Right? And so those- That's fast ... ancestral grasses from over 10,000 years ago produce these little seed pods that the people in their deep relationship with the grasses knew, would become food for the people so yeah, so Corn Mother and Tonantzin feel like they blend in and out for me of each other.

Jennifer Taylor (2): Yeah. 

Alicia: Yeah. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): That's really beautiful. I love the story of where it's like I kept trying to make something else, but this is, this is what kept coming out. it's amazing how things like that happen where it's like, you know, we keep trying down one road, but it keeps showing up regardless. Like, even when we're determined, no, this [00:59:00] is, this is what I'm doing, something else still manages to come through when it's what we need to see and connect with and feel.

Yes. 

Tava Baird: With... We turn away and the divine gets louder. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): It's true. Exactly. 

Speaker 4: It's beautiful I would love to know, if you don't mind sharing a little bit more, because I have people who come to me all the time for, like, a reading or something, and what comes out of the reading is, "You need to start an ancestor practice."

Tava Baird: And they go, "How do I do that?" And I mean, I have, like, a little sort of, "Well, you could try this or this or this." And, like, one of the very first things that I tell people is I say, "Do you know where your family came from?" Mm. And I'm ... Especially in the pagan community, we have a lot of people who are estranged from their family, and so they assume that their ancestor practice has to be directly connected to the generation or to directly before [01:00:00] them who they're- Mm

uncomfortable with. And I point out that no, no, no, the ancestors doesn't have to be ... Like, who are your inspirations? Who are your artistic ... You know, who, who is it, authors, painters, writers, philosophers, um, rebels, who is it that lights up your heart? These are all your ancestors. Um, but it also does help a lot of times to know, because we do have a connection to the land, to know where your people came from.

Mm. Because sometimes going back to those places allows you to feel something that you've missed before. I run into people all the time who say, "You know, I got off the plane in Israel, and I immediately felt like I was home," or, "I got off- Mm ... the plane in, India, and I immediately felt like I was home, and it was this

You know, I've never been [01:01:00] there before, but I knew that some part of me had walked here at one point." And I had a similar situation, when I went to Hermitage Castle in Scotland, is I walked on and had this intense deja vu feeling. And so, that sort of experience, can be really good.

But I'm always trying to collect ideas of what different people's ancestor practice and connection with them looks like, because what works for me isn't gonna work for everybody. And so that way- Yeah ... they have a wider area of expertise to draw from. So if you wouldn't mind, I know it's probably deeply personal, but if there's any that you might share, I'd really appreciate it.

Alicia: Oh, I'd love to. Um- I think one of the lessons, the big lessons I've learned, and actually it can, it weaves in with corn mother, [01:02:00] is if we invoke guidance, from where we do feel connection, right? Like you're naming inspirational people or lands or the land that we live on, just the land that we are in relationship to every day.

Um, and then ask those connections to be bridges to what connections may be wanting to happen. But, it's almost like what's next in that connection? 'Cause I think we can always continue deepening, and then there might be some inroads for some actual reweaving of some of the wounded and troubled parts of, of our...

It might not mean, it might not mean reconciling with current living relatives, um, if, if boundaries are there for good reasons. But it could be even just further [01:03:00] back of just, like, what can be tended. So my story about that is, um, three years ago I was diagnosed with breast cancer, and breast cancer and autoimmune diseases run on my mother's side of the family, where we have, Irish ancestry.

All, all my family is, like, everyone's Mexican with some exception further back, but, um, except for this great-grandfather who's Irish American. Um, right, born in Chester, Pennsylvania, and was in the US Army during World War I and stationed on the US-Mexico border, and then he married the Mexican woman and he, and then we became Irish Mexican family.

Um-

So Grandpa Watson was that side of the family, but we didn't, I didn't grow up with any cultural [01:04:00] connections to that side of the family 'cause I, I grew up on the Mexican border and I grew up Mexican culture. But when I was diagnosed with breast cancer, I was like, oh, it's this something, some of this trouble that somehow is on this side of the, the family and I, I sort of just got into my problem solver brain of like, I'm gonna just dive into healing the whatever's going on on the Irish side and right.

And I had a session, my good friend, um, does family constellation work, and I was like, okay. I don't think he'd mind me sharing his name, Logan. I was like, "Okay, Logan, I wanna like, get into the Irish side because, you know, I gotta deal with my breast cancer and like, let's heal heal this, this family up." Um, and as we were meeting, he's like, "Alicia, I don't know what to tell you."

He's like, "I'm not getting any Irish. [01:05:00] I'm just keep getting corn mother, corn mother, corn mother in this session." And he had even had a dream about me and the corn mother before our session. He's like, "I think you need to turn to the corn mother, and it's not time to turn to the Irish." And I was like, "Okay.

I, I guess I'll do that." Um- And as soon as our session ended, I went to my bookshelf where I had a book about the corn mother called Selu that I'd never read. It was one of... I bought it, like, 10 years before because I found it and was like, "Okay, I definitely need to have the corn mother book." And I just opened it up to the middle of the book, and right there was, a whole chapter about Oak Ridge, Tennessee, which is where Grandpa Watson lived.

And so Grandpa Watson, and where I feel like some [01:06:00] of the ancestral tending that our family has to do, Grandpa Watson worked for the Manhattan Project during World War II, and he was stationed, or he was assigned to work at Oak Ridge, Tennessee, where they enriched the uranium for the bombs that got made at Los Alamos, um, for the atomic bombs.

Right? So I open this corn mother book, and there's a whole chapter not just about Oak Ridge but about the Manhattan Project. And it turns out that the author of this book, Awiakta, who is Cherokee, grew up, uh, lived for a number of years in her childhood in Oak Ridge. Her father also worked for the Manhattan Project as an accountant, and she has woven together her work, her devotion to the corn mother with, calling for right relationship to the atom.

Speaker 5: Wow. [01:07:00]

Alicia: And so my idea of like- That is- ... okay, I need to just, like, focus on the Irish, and the corn mother's like, "No, you need to stay with me, and I'm gonna guide actually how this is gonna go." 

Tava Baird: You're gonna get there- Wow ... a different way. 

Alicia: Yeah. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Wow. That's amazing. 

Alicia: And so after I went through my mastectomy and kind of got settled after the surgery and started taking my hormone blockers and everything, then I actually wrote a fan letter to Awiakta, um, this Cherokee woman who wrote this, and I told her all about Grandpa Watson and Oak Ridge and the corn mother.

And she and I have become friends. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Oh, how beautiful. 

Alicia: And, um, we speak on the phone every few months. She's 90 years old. Um- Wow ... and she is still so present. She's [01:08:00] such an amazing, intelligent, beautiful woman who is so passionate about corn mother, and she's also so passionate about the right relationship to the atom.

Jennifer Taylor (2): That's amazing 

Tava Baird: I am, can only imagine if you told her your story 

Alicia: Yes. 

Tava Baird: About what the response would have been. I mean... 

Alicia: Oh, she was, um... And so she, even though I have my Mexican origins, actually the story, it's... She has been my great teacher, um, in sort of this expression of Corn Mother that seems to be coming through 

Tava Baird: Absolutely stunning story.

My goodness 

Alicia: And the long... It was sort of this, this roundabout way. I feel very close to my Grandpa Watson now. [01:09:00]Um, and it feels like he accompanies me on these assignments that Corn Mother has me go on. But it was kind of not done direct, like head-on with Grandpa Watson. It was done in this sort of spiral way that Corn Mother took me on.

Jennifer Taylor (2): That's so beautiful. And I know- That's an 

Tava Baird: amazing story ... 

Jennifer Taylor (2): that you're now, um, you know, really putting out there and really stepping into offering, your ancestor, work, kinds of workshops and things like that. What kinds of things are you putting out there now and that maybe people could, you know, touch into or maybe be able to attend?

And I know you were talking about your writings. are there things out there that people could find I'm sure so many people are gonna want, like we do, to hear more and learn more and learn from you. 

Tava Baird: Yeah. How can people find you for, for more of you? 

Alicia: So I have a website [01:10:00] called waywardcurandera, .com.

And curandera is, um, just a term for healer that's often used in, Spanish-speaking countries in Latin America. So Wayward Curandera, wayward because I don't walk a singular path. I have many many influences. and the way is often not linear. Um, it's often wayward. And so I'm gonna be offering some ancestral tending groups this fall, that folks can sign up for.

When we get together and work with the ancestors in a group, I find there's a lot of cross-pollination, um, and a lot of synchronicities between people. And so I think the group format is really exciting. I just led a retreat. I'm in Austin right now. I, I live in Tucson, Arizona, but I'm in Austin right now, and I just led an ancestral [01:11:00] tending for change-makers retreat that included quite a lot of Corn Mother.

Um, Corn Mother is definitely part of the guide of the ancestor work because she is also... Even though she originated in Mexico, she's very diasporic, and she has been all over the globe, and so many cultures have really claimed her as essential to them. And so She often expresses to me how she is a gift to the people and she is meant to be part of the gift economy.

Um, she is not meant for hoarding. She is meant for gifting and for exchange, and that's how she got... That's how she spread throughout the Americas, people exchanging seeds of hers, and she's a sacred gift between the people. And so she, in this ancestor retreat I just [01:12:00] did, she really offered herself as one of the wise guides for people to help bridge to then, um, maybe individual guides or more personal ancestors, because we often just need, we need someone or some guide who is going to help connect what has been disconnected And so we need them to take the lead.

And so she's, she, she often volunteers herself for that. Um, and so I often give people corn meal that I grind on my great-grandmother's stones, um, as a way of just, uh, making offerings to feed and nourish those connections. So we would be doing, we'll be doing a lot of that in the groups. and then I also do individual sessions with people, and then I have a whole substack of writings devoted to Corn [01:13:00] Mother, um, called Offerings to Corn Mother.

And Guadalupe's also, my Guadalupe writings are also on there. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Yes. you had shared some of your writings about Guadalupe, and it was really, really so beautiful and really helped me in my understanding and, connection more, with her. So I absolutely... if people can, go on and connect and read some of those, they're just really, really beautiful.

And I, I found there was a lot... There was one that you had written where it was, like a story of, when people confuse Guadalupe for Mother Mary, and it was just fantastic. And I was thinking, "Oh my goodness, Lilith would love this," like it's so full of that Lilith kind of energy.

Um, and listening to them and the way that you kind of portrayed them and the way they were speaking and [01:14:00]acting, it was just absolutely wonderful. Oh. Um, I really love it. 

Alicia: Thank you. We will 

Tava Baird: have, we will have to put a lot of links so that people can find your website and substack and all of these other things.

I know I am just fascinated. Um- 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Yeah. So those will be in the show notes. So if you click on, where it's like more or something like that underneath the episode depending on where you're listening to it, we'll make sure all those links are there so that you can contact her. And I would imagine, Alicia, even though you're in Tucson, especially your one-on-one things, do you do those all through, also through Zoom or something?

Alicia: Through Zoom. I see. And the groups will be through Zoom too. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Oh, really? 

Alicia: Yeah. We'll do some- Oh, that's so exciting ... we'll do the ancestor groups by Zoom. Yeah. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Oh, yeah. And so if you have anything, coming up, I think you were saying you had something coming up, we can also put, the dates and links for that as well for [01:15:00] anybody that wants to join, um, and I knew it was really interesting real- fairly early on in our relationship, I realized that the ancestor component of what I'm supposed to be remembering and bringing through for Amnivara, I knew you held a really important piece there, and that I need to learn from you in a lot of that ancestor, work and other ways of kind of connecting in with that.

So I am personally very excited about hearing about all of these offerings. 

Alicia: That's, uh, I, I love hearing that because also I've learned so much from both of you, um, right? And, like, connecting to the angels was something I could never do before. I n- I didn't not believe in the angels or, like, acknowledge, but I could never feel them until I started experiencing your incredible sessions [01:16:00] and the songs.

And then, um, Tava, I've, like, really just delved into Lilith and feel so, Just so blessed by that connection and with Samael. There... It feels like there's something very synergistic that, has been happening. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Oh, 

Tava Baird: absolutely. thank you so much for saying that. I am learning so much today, and it's like listening to you talk has just been like a shift 

coming at things a different way. 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Thank you so much for joining us today. This has been such an amazing conversation and time with Alicia. And the good news is we are continuing our conversation next week, and it only gets better. But of course, I didn't want to leave you without a song. 

So I decided to share with [01:17:00] you, a song that I channeled from Archangel Michael and a nature spirit teacher, called "Awaken". And This is actually a song that I channeled for the Mystic Fire ritual last year, and I forgot to release it. so I only just very recently, released it on my Amnivara Bandcamp, which I'd intended to have for everyone last year, and I just realized that it wasn't actually released.

So I hope that you enjoy it. It's a really ethereal track that is filled with healing energies to help to awaken your divine self and illuminate your way forward. So enjoy and have a wonderful week.

[01:18:00] [01:19:00] [01:20:00] [01:21:00] [01:22:00] [01:23:00] [01:24:00] [01:25:00] [01:26:00] [01:27:00] [01:28:00]