The Magic of Not Knowing

Jennifer and Tava return to their conversation about expectation, control, and the strange gifts that can appear when familiar certainty falls away. From sensory-deprivation tanks and walking through a dark forest without a flashlight to divination, self-worth, and the mystery of taking one step at a time, they explore what becomes possible when we loosen our grip on needing to know the whole path. The episode closes with an unexpected musical transmission—and a message that leaves them both with much to sit with.

In This Episode

• What happens to time, awareness, and perception when ordinary sensory input falls away
• The difference between the narrow “beam” of control and a wider, more responsive awareness
• Divination as conversation rather than a demand for prediction
• Releasing the pressure to have every answer before moving forward
• Mist, mystery, and learning to trust the next visible step
• Why building a relationship with a guide is part of the path
• Self-worth, Lilith, and granting ourselves permission to approach the divine
• An unexpected message carried through Samael following Jennifer’s song

Journey Through This Episode

00:00 — Opening song
05:30 — In the absence of stimulus
08:30 — When time slips away
09:30 — Seeing with consciousness
14:30 — Learning the dark
18:00 — Expectation, safety, and awareness
22:30 — Samael on prediction and power
24:30 — Letting yourself stop
26:00 — Questions, divination, and connection
31:00 — The mist and the next step
33:30 — Finding guides for yourself
35:00 — There are no Pagan police
38:00 — Worth is not conceit
42:00 — Perfectly imperfect
44:00 — A song of worth
48:00 — Another speaks
50:00 — “Sing on, singer”
53:00 — A guide at the threshold

Musical Transmission

Jennifer opens the episode with a song to set the space. Near the close, she invites Samael, Lilith, and Michael to bring through a song of worth.

Mentions:

podcast discussing blindfold vision 

What Resonates Podcast - May 20, 2026 Blindfold Vision, Midnight, and Newuman Potential with Dr Edith Ubuntu 

https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-what-resonates-77405468/episode/blindfold-vision-mindsight-and-new-human-potential-with-dr-edith-ubuntu-chan-334217709

Continue Exploring

Jennifer Taylor / Amnivara
https://amnivara.com

Jennifer’s channeled music and sound transmissions
https://amnivara.bandcamp.com

Tava Baird
https://tavabaird.com

Mystical Musings
https://mysticalmusings.buzzsprout.com

Thank you for listening to Mystical Musings. May you find yourself worthy to walk the path—and may mystery become not an obstacle, but a companion.

This podcast is offered for inspiration, reflection, and entertainment. It is not medical, psychological, legal, or professional advice. Trust your own discernment, and seek licensed support when it is needed.

Please remember this podcast is for inspiration, reflection, and entertainment only, and is not medical, psychological, or professional advice.

We are two friends sharing personal experiences and evolving perspectives as we learn and grow. This is not a substitute for your own discernment, inner wisdom, or qualified professional guidance.

Take what resonates, trust your intuition, and seek licensed support when needed, always honoring your own inner knowing and personal truth.

Thank you joining us today, you are a valued member of our tribe!  If you are enjoying the podcast, please consider telling your friends and sharing it on social media.  We would greatly appreciate your support in helping us reach others and spread our messages of worth, openness and exploration. 

Connect with your Hosts!

Tava Baird:   tavabaird.com or https://darkflowerbooks.etsy.com.

Jennifer Taylor:  Amnivara (previously Willow Ridge Reiki and Healing Arts)           https://www.Amnivara.com/

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

The Magic of Not Knowing

Jennifer Taylor (2): THANK YOU for joining us for another episode! Here is a song to set the space, and then we will start right where we left off last week. Enjoy!

Tava Baird: [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00]

So there's like flotation tanks and things like this, but a sensory [00:06:00] deprivation tank is essentially, it's like soundproof, lightproof, there's a way that it...

I know for somebody like me with claustrophobia, I'm like, "No. Never," right? Um, but they have a thing inside that you can use to get out if you need to. I think sometimes they might have water in them. but the idea is you go inside them and sit, and your brain, which wants to completely take in the environment, can't see anything, can't hear anything.

There's basically no stimulus, right? So where does your brain go during that time? How does it operate? And my husband said that he'd had a conversation, I think it was with two different people, who had tried these, because there are places that you can go to that do this as like a service, you know, pay for 15 minutes in a sensory deprivation tank or whatever.

And [00:07:00] he said what was really interesting is like they would buy like a half an hour, and they would get in going, "I don't know if I'm gonna like this. I don't know if I'm gonna like this." And the person there would say, "If you don't like it, that's fine. Get in. Here's the lever to open the lid so you can pop out whenever you want.

Just go in and at any point, you end the session. You just pop the lid and you're out." And he said in both of those cases, the person went in And would at first be like, "Oh, oh, I don't have any stimulation." And there's like a little bit of like a panic. Like, I can't tell where my body ends and the darkness begins.

I, I don't have all the input that comes in. And he said a lot of times what would happen is people would ... Like, those two people both tried to sort of ride the wave of that initial strangeness, and then they would wait. [00:08:00] Like, both of them said, "I thought I waited about five minutes, and then I decided I just couldn't do it anymore.

And I popped the lid," and the person outside would go, "Wow, you made it all 30 minutes. I'm so surprised." And they'd be like, "What are you talking about? I was in there no more than five minutes." And they'd be like, "Nope. You can look at all the clocks. You can look at your watch and your phone. You were in there for the whole session."

they went in there and they couldn't perceive time correctly anymore. I thought that was wild. Like, their entire perceptions of the how long things took just left. And I'm like, I still don't know that I'd do it. Would you do it? 

Jennifer Taylor (2): Um, yeah, I would do it. I would do it, and I'm sure I would go through the same panic at the beginning that everybody else seems to have.

Um, but I'm really interested [00:09:00] in seeing what it would be like. It's interesting when you were talking about how you can't perceive time accurately in those situations, and I was thinking I've had the same kind of thing, I've done a number of, discernment sessions and energy healing sessions in the stone circle, primarily with my eyes closed, but it's, tapping into all of these different energies and trying to follow what I'm supposed to do, and I'm singing and I'm moving and having all these expereinces , and I'll think, "Okay, I'm done."

it's probably been like 30 minutes, and it was like two hours. And going, how in the world have I been in there for two hours?" And I was sure that it was like 30 minutes at the most. But it is interesting you know, what, markers we use to figure out time.

The other sensory thing when you were talking about that, and interestingly, another podcast that I hadn't thought of as related, but there was a woman talking about blindfold vision. Have you heard about this? [00:10:00] Where people are taught, and especially children, and they used to say that it had to be children, I think, up until the age of seven that could be taught this, and now they know that adults can be taught this as well.

But essentially, you're blindfolded absolutely completely. There is no light. There is absolutely nothing coming through, and they can teach you in just a few weeks to be able to use your consciousness to see. And there are all these videos. we watched, I think it was a documentary or a show on it, where you see all these kids with these mega blindfolds on, and they're rollerblading around the playground.

They're reading books. They're playing ping pong. They're doing absolutely everything as though they could see perfectly and they didn't have a blindfold on. And so people you can learn to see with your consciousness and not your eyes at [00:11:00] all. And so some people that are blind- I've never heard of that

or like they do a lot of, people who are, uh, either blind or I, I don't know if you have to have any sight, like at all or- Right ... but it makes sense that you would need to 'cause they're trying to get rid of absolutely all of it. And so they're teaching, blind people and people with extreme, deficits in their eyesight to be able to read again and see just as clearly as before, probably more clearly than before.

And you can learn- No, I've not heard, no ... to then see behind you and around, because if you think about it, if you're using your consciousness to see, you don't, you're not limited to the range of motion- Right, right, right ... of your eyeballs. So you can see behind you, you can see all of these other places. And this woman that was talking about it, who now has a whole program of teaching, people how to do this and it's onli- and I know she had said that they do it online now through Zoom because it had started up with, [00:12:00] the pandemic.

But she originally in her story, she had gone to, and I'd never heard of these, um, it was like darkness meditation retreat or something. So essentially, throughout, it was a week or two weeks, they spent the entire time in the darkness. So during the daytime they were inside doing this meditative retreat, and they could go outside once it was totally dark, so you could see like the stars and things.

But otherwise, they were in complete darkness for at least a week. And when she came out, she was able to see and hear, like she could see energies and spirits and things. She could hear all kinds of things. she was hearing the thoughts of her neighbors several, apartments away. She was so bombarded with all of these, senses that had turned on so much from having been in the dark for that period of time- Right

that she actually ended up moving out into the country [00:13:00] further away from so many people 'Cause she couldn't sleep because at night she would hear and see all these things. So it was really interesting, too, the idea of, I wonder if there's a period of time in like a sensory deprivation tank 'cause that wasn't sensory deprivation other than light- For sight, yeah

I wonder if there's a period of time in a sensory deprivation tank that would also potentially turn on other- Well, that's interesting ... you know, other, um, abilities or senses. 

Tava Baird: If you have the links to that podcast, that would be really cool to put in the notes if people want to listen to it.

That's- 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. Yeah ... really 

Tava Baird: interesting. 

Jennifer Taylor: I'll put that podcast in, and I'll see if I can find her website. Um, I've been so interested- I have not heard of that ... in learning to do this for years. I'm like, "I'm gonna have to do, I'm gonna have to just do it," because I think it would just be so amazing. And then I think it seems like it would amplify your ability then to [00:14:00] astral travel and see more clearly.

Hmm. You know, so many times when we're shamanic journeying or we're traveling, it's like I see the things, but sometimes they're, you know, but it's not all that clear, but I, it's like- Right ... I know what it is and I know what, you know, I know enough to interact but not, I'm not seeing it clearly. I wonder if that would sharpen the vision, you know- Hmm

like the kind of clairvoyant vision. 

Tava Baird: Right. 

Jennifer Taylor: Um, by activating that seeing with your consciousness purely and not your eyes. I 

Tava Baird: mean, I have never experienced anything sort of that extreme where, like, there's no light coming in. But, um, I do remember, so when I was in my 20s in college, I got a summer job, for one of the national wildlife federations, like eastern wildlife camps, where I was gonna be in the woods all summer, right?

And, you go to the woods, you don't know the woods, you don't know where the tree roots are and the steps all through camp. and [00:15:00] it's was way outside of Hendersonville, North Carolina. So there wasn't any streetlights, anything like that. if you got a moon, you were...

It was, you know, it might work, but a lot of times you would have clouds or, or not even that. And I remember going and being like, "I gotta make sure I have flashlight batteries. I gotta make sure I have flashlight batteries," because I knew I would be moving around in the dark. and just being so chained to that flashlight, like, the first week that I was there.

And, you know, if I'm walking through the woods from one part of camp to another, that might be a good distance away from each other. Just being like, "What was that? What was that?" And I had this perception that the light was safety and that Lord only knows what was in the dark. And then I forget what happened, but I was somewhere at one point, um, it might have been like one of my...

They had like a staff cabin for when it was your, you know, your evening off or whatever. And I think I was sitting in there talking to [00:16:00] people and, um, people filtered out to go back to their own cabins and I got ready to walk back to mine and realized I had no flashlight. And you know, this is before everybody had cell phones, where you could walk around with your light.

And I went, "Oh God." Like, I'm either gonna have to sleep on the floor in the staff cabin, like the hangout cabin, or I'm g- or... But I'm at least gonna have to make it to the closest someplace to get a flashlight. And I remember thinking, I've, I, I've been walking on the path for a week I'm not gonna get lost.

like I know what to do if I, I start to feel like I don't know where I am, I hug a tree and I start yelling and somebody's gonna come. But I remember walking outside and just being like, "I'm gonna get eaten by a bear. I'm gonna..." You know, like all these, the, this fear of what might be in the dark was there.

And I [00:17:00] walked back and, I mean, my eyes did some adjusting 'cause your eyes do get used to lower lighting But I got comfortable with the idea of not knowing where exactly everything was and what exactly was going to happen, and instead sort of listening to what was happening, and just sort of shifting the senses a little bit.

And that summer I got really comfortable in the dark, where I would just be like, "I don't need to take a flashlight." You know, I would take a flashlight if I was helping a child or somebody else go somewhere for them, but I preferred not to have one because my senses were so much more open, and I felt so much more comfortable that I knew what was outside the realm of vision when I wasn't, when I didn't have that restriction that my vision is only where this little bubble of light is.

So, um, it [00:18:00] was an interesting shift in perspective. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah, it's interesting because as I'm listening to you tell that story, it's so ties into the expectation and that, that narrow beam of light seeming like control and safety, but when you didn't have it, you were actually more aware of all the possibilities and all of that was around.

And I was thinking, "Oh, my goodness, this has taken us right back to the beginning," and that the- 

Tava Baird: Yeah ... 

Jennifer Taylor: story encapsulates so much of that. 

Tava Baird: And my expectation was I'm gonna trip and fall. I'm gonna get hurt. And that summer I didn't fall, not once, you know. Well, at least not off of that. There's a rather abysmal attempt to rock climb story that, um, oh, heck, it's the podcast.

I'll tell it quickly. I had never been rock climbing. I was in my early 20s. Um, a bunch of people who were also counselors at the camp were really into rock climbing. And we would have, like, two-week sessions where we had kids, but then there'd be, like, a weekend break [00:19:00] in between, and we would do stuff like, you know, get in trucks and go down to Asheville and listen to music.

and one day somebody said, um, "Hey, we're gonna go rock climbing. Do you wanna come?" And I was like, "Not really of the physiology that rock climbs." And they're like, "No, no, no. We, we'd have you in a harness, and it's not like you're going down a sheer cliff. We... You know, it's a little rock wall we'll take you up.

And people who are experienced will go up a lot higher." And I went, "Okay, I'll try it." And I was actually strong enough that I made it up a little ways, but, eh, lost my balance. And I guess whoever was... Is it called belaying- Yeah ... when they have the rope- It was called belay ... and they put it behind them? Mm-hmm.

Whoever was belaying, something happened, and the rope- swung me into a tree. Oh my God. And I mean, like, twirling s- body slam into a tree. Oh. Swing back out, twirl, body slam on the other side back into the tree. [00:20:00]

Jennifer Taylor: Oh. 

Tava Baird: They finally got me down to the ground, and they're like, "We are so sorry." And of course I'm like, "It's cool.

I'm fine." "I'm fine." The next day everybody was gonna go into Asheville, and I woke up and could not move my body because literally every muscle, other than my face, had had a high impact with a tree moment. And so they didn't know what to do with me. I was like, "You guys..." They're like, "We'll we'll stay."

And I'm like, "No, it's fine. You guys have been looking forward to this trip. Go into Asheville, have a great time. Go shopping, have lunch, whatever. I'll be cool." And so they said, "Well, where do you wanna be?" And I wanted to paint, so they took me to the craft cabin, and basically sat me right outside the bathroom door so that if I needed to get to the bathroom I could kinda, like, crawl in.

And they put, like, a cooler with snacks and food, [00:21:00] and an easel and supplies right there. And they're like, "We'll be back in a couple hours." And I was like, "No problem." Well, they had turned on, I will never as God as my witness forget this, it was Peter Gabriel's, uh, what was the, the... It was out in the early '90s.

It was the one that had, like, Big Time on it and, you know, like, I forget what the name of that album was. But they had turned the CD player on repeat. Ooh. But they'd put it way across the room and left it on his music. I listened to Peter Gabriel for, like, 10 and a half straight hours, where I could not reach it to change it or turn it off.

I did a lot of painting that day. But even for, like, two or three days afterwards, just moving was hard. So anyway, that has nothing to do with the podcast other than, I don't know, if you have maybe, like, a grudge against me for some reason, I thought you might enjoy the [00:22:00] idea of me being body slammed into a tree, twirled, and then body slammed on the other side.

Jennifer Taylor: I don't think anyone listening to the podcast could possibly want any of that to happen to you. While it is a very, uh, you know, slapstick comedy, uh, entertaining story for sure, like that, I can't... Oh my goodness. Oh, 

Tava Baird: God. 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh, that's awful. 

Tava Baird: Anyway, yeah. 

Jennifer Taylor: Well, I'm thinking it's time to sing. But I feel like- Yay

before that, I would love it if you would read what Samael had said at the beginning again, just as a- Okay ... kind of reminder of his wisdom after we've shared all sorts of things that- 

Tava Baird: All right. 

Jennifer Taylor: The- ... may or may not have been on task. 

Tava Baird: So here we go "I wish to speak to you today, friends, about what you carry at your entrances, what you bear through your mornings and your greetings, and the cracking of the spines of your [00:23:00] books.

Expectation. It is a natural thing for the human mind to attempt prediction. Countless divination forms appear to be based on it. You want a warning, a reassurance, and a feeling of control. And yet, when you go to the card reader or learn to cast bones, you discover something. Your desire to predict is not what is delivered.

Instead, you end up in conversation with the divine. And because you too are divine, this means that you end in conversation with yourself about that need to control the feeling of powerlessness. But do you not see, child, that sometimes the absence of power is the point, that letting go is necessary to balance the energy of scheduling and [00:24:00] exertion?

Power. It acts as a drug on its own. Pick up your pendulum and leaves, your dice and runes, and enter into connection with your past and future selves. Let the lines blur. Release the rules you set for yourself, and remember what it is to walk in divinity"

Jennifer Taylor: That's so beautiful. And I think the only part that we hadn't really maybe talked about so much was that falling and the stopping. And, I feel like you've had a number of stories where people were asking Samael questions or were confronted with, Samael bringing forth things and expecting that they were gonna be told that they hadn't done enough.

And It's pretty much invariably you're doing too much. Stop, [00:25:00] center, let yourself fall, and allow the dust to settle, and give yourself time and grace to just connect and then move forward with more focus and centeredness and connection. And- Yeah

I, I think that's a really, really important part of all this and all the change that we were just talking about and the momentum that we feel picking up. And I think there's the fear that the momentum will stop if we stop. But I think s- having the stops along the way to just say, "I just need to set it all down and let go and connect- Yeah

and catch up with myself so that I'm not so far out ahead of myself that, I'm really not here and present and able to be aware of all of the things that are around and the guidance." [00:26:00]

Tava Baird: Yeah. It, it can get awkward at times because I will have people who write and say, um, "I really wanna ask Samael something," or "Could we set aside a little time?"

And then it's pages of questions. You know, like, "Should I do this at work? And should I do this here? And should I do da, da, da," you know? And- it's odd because I will sit down and he will go, "None of those questions are important." And I'm like, "Okay, uh, I have to write them back." Like, and he'll be like, "They're not important."

Because what he sees as important is that they need to get to a place where they're not so wrapped up in the questions and trying to predict all the outcomes. They get locked into a place in their head where they think that they don't have the answer and he does. And what he wants to impart on them is you can either tie yourself to people [00:27:00] who seem to have all the answers, except that they don't either.

Like, angels see far, but they do not predict everything. Like in the case with your mother-in-law, where he was saying she has not decided yet. It wasn't up to the angel of death alone. It wasn't like he walked in and said, "Yeah, we're doing this thing. Hop out of your body." You know, and we have that idea of death in our, in our culture a lot of times.

The here comes the Grim Reaper, and there's nothing you can do to escape, Are we all going to die? Yes. So that is true. We have bodies, and our bodies eventually give out or, you know, meet with accidents, all sorts of things. But the exact manner in which that happens is no more predictable than, the other things that happen in our life.

And so what he wants to say is instead of putting yourself in a powerless state and sending 16 pages of questions, wouldn't it be much more [00:28:00] beneficial for you to get to a place where you are connected and can see the way forward yourself? when you are in a place where you're not doing the thing where you lay out the tarot cards and then go, "That isn't the answer I want, so I'm gonna pick up and do the cards again."

We all know how that ends, right? Where the difference that I see, especially in divination, between people who are on a spiritual path and those who are just starting, is that the people who are just starting say, "Tell me the solution to the problem," and those who have been on a spiritual path for a time say, "What am I missing that I need to see?

What guides are here? What opportunities are there? How do I create? What am I blind to on purpose because of my will or my fears [00:29:00] or that I'm grasping at the concept that I have control?" Um, I've actually had several Zen Buddhists come and take the Lilith path and one of the places where we really bond is this idea of attachment.

You know? Uh, that attachment is what causes us a lot of pain, and a lot of ours, the Zen Buddhists that I have hung out with, they know that, right? It's the attachment to the concept of what you thought should happen or will happen. It's that attachment that's causing you pain. And Samael's on those same lines.

Your attachment to those questions makes them whirl around in your head so that you cannot see the connection that is always there, and has always been there, and will continue to be there. You have to set the [00:30:00] questions down and breathe and connect, and then you won't need to come to him with 10 pages of questions because you will see far enough to navigate your own journey.

Is he there for support? Absolutely. Is he really fun to talk to? Yes, unless it's 3:00 in the morning. We were talking about sensory deprivation tanks. I'm pretty sure if you stuck me in one of those, he would be like, "Oh, good, you are available." And it would just be 30 minutes of me going, "Where's the hatch?

Please. He's got me alone. Now we're gonna talk about something I barely imagine. Please don't let it be math again. Oh, please don't let it be math." He's fed on a- It 

Jennifer Taylor: really is Samael, isolation tank 

Tava Baird: A Samael isolation tank, right? They, they open the lid and I'm like, like, "For real?" Oh, no. I'm, I'm joking.

I'm joking. I am very, very [00:31:00] grateful to have him in my life. Um, yes, humor. He, he just went, "Humor." And I was like, "Yes." Yes. Humor, Samael. Um- 

Jennifer Taylor: I think one of the things that you were talking about when you were saying, you know, it's like getting to the place where you can see the path forward, you know, you can see that on your own.

And one of the things that I think is really important is that sometimes we expect that when we can see that, we're gonna be able to see a lot further than maybe w- we will be. And some of that I think is kind of for our own protection because you're... there's that you can climb an entire staircase only being able to see one step at a time.

And sometimes we think we want to be able to see the whole picture, but if we see that far, then there's all of this pressure and expectation and all these things that start coming in that start to, you know, muddle the path, and all of a sudden start to [00:32:00] clutter things back up again. And something that actually just came through for me in the last week, um, in a shamanic journey w- I met this being named Eonia who was showing me mist.

And- the entirety of Amnivara was I was standing in the center of the temple, and it became shrouded in mist. And I was overcome by the, just the magic and the mystery that mist creates. And it's that idea that you continue to walk even though you can't see everything.

And when... as you're walking forward, you know, you can... I- it's like you can't see what's in the distance, but you can walk through the mist and still be able to see pretty well, because once you're in that spot, you can see better what's around it. 

Mm-hmm. 

And the idea of not thinking of the fact that I can't see it all, and I don't have all the details and all of those things as a negative, [00:33:00] but rather when I was surrounded and I was in that mist, 

I was so overcome with the magic of the mystery of all of it- Mm-hmm ... that it shifted everything, and I was glad that I couldn't see it all, and that it wasn't just like walking into a big library and going, "Oh my goodness, look at all the books. All right, there's so much to take in." But just the idea that when you are getting connected and you feel like you've connected with yourself and your guides and your path, it doesn't mean that you're gonna be able to see all the things or know the entire, timeline of all of it.

But let it be enough and a magical thing to just take that one step at a time, but keep knowing that you can continue to move forward that way. 

Tava Baird: One of the things that Samael does that I think some people find maddening is he will talk to them in mirrors [00:34:00] or ask me to pass a message on or something, and he will say something to them like, "There is a new guide waiting for you.

They're right there." And the person will go, "What's the, what's the entity's name?" And Samael goes, "No." And they're like, "But I wanna know the na-" "No." Like, part of the journey is you've gotta find the name yourself. He's told you they're there, but he's not going to give you their birthdate, their astrology sign, and what they had for breakfast because the move forward to find that name, to make space for that guide, to find out how you are uniquely going to connect with them, is building the relationship.

It is the bond. And people will go, "No, it's really obvious that he knows it," because sometimes he'll give them, like, one more kernel. Like, he'll be like, "Look in blah, blah, blah," and that's it. And then they're like, "Well wait, where [00:35:00] do I get blah, blah, blah?" And he's like, "No." You know? 

and part of that, I think, really comes back to, to Lilith. You know? Like, if, if the next rung on the ladder is shown to you, is the reason you're not stepping on it because you think you're not worthy of this climb, or you're not ready, or that somebody's gonna judge you? One of the things I say over and over in any class that I teach these days is there are no Pagan police.

Right? People will go, "Well, a- am, am..." Like, I was doing something the other day, and we were making a ritual oil at a full moon night, and somebody said, "Am I allowed to not put the sage in?" And I'm like, "It's your ritual oil. You don't have to put anything. You could literally just dump some olive oil in it and call it yours.

You wanna just put paint in there and call it yours? it's your decision and your path." And then they're like, "Well, is it okay if I don't use the clove oil? [00:36:00] Is it still..." And I'm like, "There's no Pagan police. I am not gonna knock on your door one night and be like, 'Ma'am, I'm here because I understand that you've been casting bones incorrectly, and I'm gonna have to cite you for that.'

It, it's your path. And so, It's okay to say, "I don't want that," or, "I do," or, "I'm just gonna try it this way and see what happens." For you are a scientist that stands on the edge between physics and metaphysics, and you are carving out your own way forward. So it can be hard with our predicting brains when we're not given the name of the guide or what book we can look them up in.

people write me all the time and say, "Can you recommend a book that will tell me how to connect with and invoke Lilith?" [00:37:00] And I say, "Well, here's the thing about Lilith. Samael says that building an altar to Lilith is building an altar to yourself, to your own divine form. So if you were to invoke the highest form of yourself, what would be on that altar?"

And that's a harder question than what book do I pick up in the metaphysics section of the store. That's a much harder question of, what if I actually thought myself as worthy as any god or goddess that ever stood in a Greek temple with people coming to lay flowers and burn incense at my feet? How do I think of myself as that level of worth?

And when you can start to get to that and see that, that is when the mist spreads a little bit more, and you [00:38:00] move forward 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny, I think, you know, so many times the fear ... And I remember when we started down this path with Lilith and all of the- Oh, God, yes ... the worst things, and, you know, we are still on this path for sure.

Um- Oh, yeah ... 

Tava Baird: you know, one of the- 

Jennifer Taylor: We do not have this 

Tava Baird: nailed ... 

Jennifer Taylor: you know, one of the biggest fears was, well, won't that make me conceited? Like, won't that turn me into this really selfish, conceited, thinking I'm better than everybody, kind of person? And, what, Samael kept telling us and what we kept discovering over and over is the more we really leaned into that and the more we allowed ourselves to start feeling that, the more clear it was that everyone has that level of worth.

Yes. Everyone would benefit from thinking of themselves that way because when you really truly do, not from a, "I've decided [00:39:00] this because I won this race," or, "I got that," or, "I have this," all the things that tend to be used in an external sense to decide who's better, in any sort of way, those were all things you couldn't u- You know, it's like none of those things- Yeah, you couldn't do

were things that you could really use if you really wanted to find your own divinity. And so when you really found your own divinity and, you know, the further we got into that, we were like, "Yeah, there's no way I could become that," because- Right ... you're more and more and more confident that everyone has this, and it's easier to see that in others as you go along.

So, you know, if anybody's hearing that and thinking, "Wait a minute," you know, "having an altar to myself and imagining that I was, a goddess and people coming and laying, offerings at my feet," like, that's not the kind of person I wanna be. if you think the way that we totally thought and we had all kinds of conversations around that, I [00:40:00] just want to assure you that it actually takes you in quite the opposite direction.

Tava Baird: Yeah. Where you end up is not conceit. Where you end up is being a guide to show other people how to hop the fence. We grow up in a culture that says, "Here is divinity, and you are in the street, and we're gonna put up a whole bunch of sawhorses that says you're not allowed to go up there unless somebody that outranks you ul- says you can go in."

And what I try to do in the Lilith classes is say, "Hey, folks, what about if we just pushed over the sawhorses and walked up ourselves?" why are we waiting for permission when the thing that we're trying to access is hope, love, and the purest, [00:41:00] most generous forms of ourself? Whose permission do we need for that?

We just need our own permission. We have a right to that. When I first started, doing book clubs when Wildwood first came out, which was my novel, people would come up to me and say, "The witchcraft in the books feels real. Is it real?" And I would say, "Yes." And they would say, "Can you teach me?" And I'd say, "Well, witchcraft isn't taught, it's remembered."

Something that's already there. You've just been divorced from it, so let's figure out how we get you connected. Because my craft, my practice is never gonna look identical to somebody else's, even if we all sit in the same room listening to the same lecturer on the same day. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely 

Tava Baird: We said we were going to sing and we didn't sing.

We were gonna 

Jennifer Taylor: sing We did it again, Jenn Tae ... like 25 [00:42:00] minutes ago, I think. But it's okay because I think it, it took us into another area that hadn't been explored of Samael's- Yeah ... words, which- 

Tava Baird: I think 

Jennifer Taylor: you're- ... is an area that I know both of us really love, and is, very near and dear to our hearts and central to our work.

So I think 

Tava Baird: it's all good. Yeah, and if you guys think we just walk around with perfect self-worth all the time, we absolutely do not. No. It's something that we work on all the time, there was one time when Samael said that Lilith still struggles with worth. And I remember we were like, "What?"

She's literally the mother of rebellion, but she's also the mother of reclamation, and reclamation is a journey. It's not one and done. So, you know, if she still walks forward when she's nervous, if she still walks forward when she feels alone, if she still walks forward and keeps her chin up and [00:43:00] finds the courage to rise again, then, she isn't pure and she isn't perfect, and we don't have to be that way either.

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. I like the, uh, term perfectly imperfect. 

Tava Baird: Yes. 

Jennifer Taylor: I've found myself saying that a lot lately. It's like, well, I'm perfectly imperfect, so- 

Tava Baird: It... Yep ... 

Jennifer Taylor: that is good enough. all right. Shall I try to sing? Yes. Less I say that- Let's do it ... I ac- I ... Should I actually say it? 

Tava Baird: Yes. 

Jennifer Taylor: All right. Well, I am really looking forward to what comes through for the next song.

I feel like it's gonna be good

And in the sense of letting go of expectations, I have to let go of the sense of what, what would constitute good. I know that it will be exactly what is meant to be[00:44:00] [00:45:00] [00:46:00] [00:47:00]

Tava Baird: That was [00:48:00] really lovely. And oh my God. 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh my 

Tava Baird: goodness. Uh, I hate that this came in as we are about to sign off, but I think we're definitely gonna have something to talk about next time. 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh, wow. 

Tava Baird:

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah, As I was starting, I invited Samael and Lilith and Michael to bring together a song of worth So I'll be interested to see what just came.

Tava Baird: Samael started off by saying, "Another speaks. I pass on these words." 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh. 

Tava Baird: And then what came out is not the way that he phrases things I think we had... I think I know who it is[00:49:00]

But I think we had a woman, and I'm curious what you get from this because I think it is a message for you Okay, so Samael says, "Another speaks. I pass on these words." And then I heard something that didn't sound quite like him, but it was clearly coming through him, like he's holding up a telephone line, right?

This is the words. "We come to this place in divine form with nothing but slim connection to soothe us, taken by the color and light of the sun and amazement at our newfound physicality. The songs of the all fading echoes in our ears, and our own cries drowning that [00:50:00] soon forgotten glory. A task set before us, a road for those cut away.

For we are the people who chose blood and bone in the hopes of balancing the energies of this place with the divine. They took him. They took him. I witnessed it all on the hill, and none of us control it. But instead of hiding, we carry forward and find refuge in the utterances of tone from our lungs and lips.

Sing on, singer. Sing on. It sustains us until such time as we remember that we are all temples that will rise again."[00:51:00]

That sounds very Amnivara at the end, doesn't it? 

Jennifer Taylor: It does. Yeah, it sounds very much like Mary Magdalene. 

Tava Baird: I think that's what we have. Especially the, "They took him." "They took him," yeah. "They took him. I witnessed it all on the hill, and none of us control it." It's a very, um Kind of having, uh, having a lot of emotions right now.

But what was really interesting to me is the message, "Sing on, singer. Sing on. It sustains us until such time as we remember we are all temples that will rise again." That's, that is, I mean, that sounds very Omnivara to me. 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh. Oh, yeah 

Tava Baird: And this [00:52:00] is clearly an entity who I, at least that's why I make that Has been in a human body.

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. 

Tava Baird: We come to this place in divine form with nothing but slim connection to soothe us. There's part of our forgetting. Taken by color in the light of the sun and the amazement at our newfound physicality I'm gonna have to talk to Samael about this, but we may need to... For another day, I suppose. 

Jennifer Taylor: Wow.

Yeah. Boy, that's a hard way to go out.

She- It's like, "Wait, no, I didn't say that." Wait. "We're still going. Did I 

Tava Baird: say that?" And interesting that he's passing it on 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah 

Tava Baird: I'm writing Mary Magdalene, Myrrh Bearer, question mark[00:53:00]

Mm-hmm. And I just went-- I was just like, "Samael, you wanna confirm this?" And he said, "Did you just not speak about finding the guides?" Oh, hoisted on my own... What is it? Petard? Yeah, I just talked about how he doesn't give names a lot of times 'cause he wants you to walk closer. I think, I think you might have somebody reaching out to you, Jenn.

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. And it's interesting the-- it aligns a lot. There are so many little bits and pieces of things that we've talked about or parts of things that he's said throughout this that feel like direct, um, validation for the things that I've been coming up with or pondering or bringing through or remembering or all of that with, what I'm supposed to be bringing through with Omnivara and what some of the mystic fire, exercises are supposed to be, and greater [00:54:00]understandings of the stones and the temple and all of that.

there's really, a lot that I feel like is kind of resonating with that. 

Tava Baird: Wow. All right, folks. Well, this has been Mystical Musings. 

Jennifer Taylor: Sorry to le- at this point, you're probably just really used to being left on cliffhangers, and we'll finish this next time. This one seems like an especially, uh, challenging one, but...

Tava Baird: Yeah, and I would like to take back my previous request that this be anything about metaphysical wedgies- ... based on how we ended. 

Jennifer Taylor: And, um, yeah, and now we get to go and sit with our own advice. 

Tava Baird: Darn it. Man. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. Man. See, we're not immune to it either. 

Tava Baird: Oh, folks, well, until we see you next week, may you [00:55:00] find yourself worthy to walk the path, and we will be right there behind you pushing you forward, giving you what assistance we can.

Hope you stay well. 

Jennifer Taylor: Absolutely. Many blessings to all of you