Messages and Miracles Part 1

In this episode, Tava Baird and Jennifer Taylor share personal stories and receive insights into miracles through the help of Samael. Tava shares her progress on her latest novel, 'The Book of High Places,' part of her Spiral Pathways series followed by an amusing story about spirit communication at the Blue Ball Inn involving a protective poppet. The conversation then shifts to a profound discussion on miracles, inspired by a mysterious number 25290 that appeared in Jenn’s dream. This number leads Jenn to explore its links to historical events, including the miraculous apparition of the Virgin of Guadalupe. The hosts delve into the significance of miracles, personal experiences, and the spiritual messages embedded within everyday moments. Samael's insights highlight the importance of recognizing personal miracles and the delicate balance between divine intervention and the human experience. The episode concludes with an integrative song intended to ground and center listeners, emanating blessings and a sense of divine connection.  This conversation continues in Part 2 next week.

00:00 Introduction and Catching Up
01:15 Creative Projects and Writing
06:29 Spirit Communication and Haunted Doll
09:15 Boob Poppets and Witchy Humor
17:40 Dreams and Ancestral Connections
31:11 The Miracle of Juan Diego's Tilma
32:48 Scientific Investigations and Mysteries
33:57 Symbolism and Cultural Impact
40:27 Exploring the Dewey Decimal Connection
42:23 Angel Numbers and Personal Reflections
44:05 Pythagorean Numerology Insights
45:27 Miracles and Personal Experiences
47:13 Divine Expressions and Human Experience
52:09 A Story of a Miraculous Statue
01:02:03 Reflections on Miracles and Divine Presence
01:07:43 Concluding Thoughts and Song

Thank you joining us today, remember to LIKE and SUBSCRIBE to keep up to date with your tribe.

Connect with your Hosts!

Tava Baird: tavabaird.com or https://darkflowerbooks.etsy.com.

Jennifer Taylor: Willow Ridge Reiki and Healing Arts https://www.willowridgereiki.com/

Transcript

S2 Ep 31 Podcast Part 1 

Jennifer Taylor: [00:00:00] Good morning, Tava Baird. 

Tava Baird: Good morning, Gente. How are you? 

Jennifer Taylor: I am well. I am getting more and more well by the day, even though my voice is not entirely reflective of that yet. But I am on the mend after two weeks of, being sick. 

Tava Baird: I'm so, you sound so much better than you did. I'm so glad you're healing up.

Jennifer Taylor: Yes. Me as well. Oh, and I know you've had a very active, gosh, every day, I think, since this podcast. 

Tava Baird: I just think it's so funny that, somebody was telling us that there's, it was gonna be this time where things were gonna settle and we were going to get things done, and it was gonna be kind of a drawing in.

And I'm like, if this is drawing in 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. What is the expansion gonna be like? Because what is the expansion intensification of what we've been experiencing? And this is Yeah, this was like [00:01:00] supposedly the downtime. 

Tava Baird: This is the downtime. I know. I'm already like, how many weeks until September and October?

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. Boy, 

Tava Baird: I take 

Jennifer Taylor: it one day at a time. 

Tava Baird: I've been enjoying doing in and amongst other things. I've been enjoying creating a whole new type of pop it lately. and I now have a lovely, lovely dolly, that I take with me when I do my spirit work. and I'm totally in love with her and, I also have been doing a lot of writing lately, and it's been really nice to do that.

And I know you and Keith have been reading chapters as they come out, and so, yeah, I have to say, I wanna thank you for that. It's 

Jennifer Taylor: really, really, really good. all of the, uh, readers. Um, you can thank Keith and I for, spurring on the reading because we'll read a couple chapters and my husband's texting her going Write faster, write faster.

Tava Baird: [00:02:00] And, you know, it's working too. I think, um, you know, the first several books in Spiral Pathways, I would write a couple chapters, send it to someone, write a couple chapters, and there was this constant sort of feedback loop going, which made me, you know, like if you're an actor, it's always more fun to perform in front of an audience if you're writing.

It's great to see people excited about stuff as it's coming out. And when you're like, oh, okay, you know, that scene did hit the way I wanted it to hit, so, um. It was funny when you guys came over the other, day and Keith was like, I don't have any TVA bear books to read. I went in and I was like, all right, let's speed this up.

And so now I'm sitting down every night and turning out more. So the book of High Places is coming along at a nice clip and it is so good. 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh my gosh, it's so good. We're like, I don't think either of us are capable of reading without like, exclaiming [00:03:00] things as we go along. We're like, oh man, oh my gosh.

And then he's like, where in? We're like, we're both reading at the same time. He's like, where are you? We're like, where are you that I can, like, I can say something, I can comment on what's happening yet. 

Tava Baird: I, I'm, it's fantastic. 

Jennifer Taylor: And this is what like just the first. Chapter or something. 

Tava Baird: so the, prologues all done and the piece I sent you yesterday was the end of part one.

most of the time the Spiral Pathways books have like four big parts . And this was a shorter part one because it was pretty much the exposition. It was kind of bringing you up to speed on what happened in the last book and then advancing forward, there's a lot of talking and people kind of figuring out what they're gonna do.

But the next section is. Hardcore action and a huge bunch of mysteries that have been kind of floating out there through the main series and the prequel series. Like everything's starting to gel where you have characters, or [00:04:00] events that happened that didn't make any sense, and now all the strings are coming together where you go, oh my gosh, like this piece was actually a result of this thing over here that seemed unrelated.

So, um, I'm, oh man. Super excited. Yeah. The characters are, about to, skip out off of Earth again and go to their respective places. And the two main storylines are rolling along, so, oh, man. Yeah. Lots of fun stuff. It feels like, 

Jennifer Taylor: this is like what we've been talking about of like, you know, if this is the downtime, like what does the next part, because I mean, we are, we've been like enthralled and exclaiming all kinds of stuff as, and this is just the setup.

Like I feel like it's just like this is the setup. Like, oh my gosh, what's gonna happen when this stuff actually starts happening? From your perspective. 

Tava Baird: Well, the magician has a lot of secrets and they start getting, opened up sort of against his will in the rest of this book. So I'm 

Jennifer Taylor: so excited for all of the other [00:05:00] readers who are in our kind of position who just cannot wait.

And if you're not caught up yet, enjoy everything that you have because it's just gonna keep getting better. 

Tava Baird: Yeah. And you know, Sam Mayel is character in, bone Witch, a character modeled on him. and, he has a much bigger part in the book of high places.

So if you kind of wanna see a walking, talking, interacting version of him. But in that world, it's really interesting to get to write him from that perspective, you know? So yeah, 

Jennifer Taylor: that's been a really neat thing to see him as a character and see him, interacting with the characters that we love and I cannot wait to see how all of that, progresses.

So, and I know you said that you had a fun story that you were gonna tell me before we I do or before I came. 

Tava Baird: Okay. So this is just sort of a funny, when, when I look at this story, I think this is my life now, right? I. You know, like five [00:06:00] years ago we didn't have the podcast. I was teaching full time, all these things.

But when this happened yesterday, I went, yeah, this is my life now. So yesterday I spent the entire day out at the Blue Ball Inn. I taught two benefit classes for the Inn. We had an absolute blast. and after class I was hanging out with Joseph who owns The Inn, and, a couple other people who are regular volunteers there who are absolutely dear friends.

And, to back up a little bit, I've been doing a lot of spirit communication work over the last maybe month or two months, like a lot. And, there was a particular, I guess the easiest way to just say it is haunted doll, on the second floor of the inn. And I had been asked to go and communicate with that spirit, maybe like two or three weeks ago.

So I went up and, had that happen and ended up getting a whole bunch [00:07:00] of names and a whole bunch of information that was later independently verified by a, during a paranormal investigation this last weekend. So anyway, I now have this relationship with the spirit in this doll and the paranormal investigators had gotten some other information that they thought might be related to the doll.

And people wanted to verify it. And so I'm there at the end of class hanging out and everyone's like, we go upstairs right now and have you talk to the doll again. And I said, okay, I don't have Matilda, who is my spirit communication, pop it. That adds protection for me. I don't have my oils. Like all I had on was my normal little pendant 'cause I had not expected to be doing anything like this.

And they're like, oh, come on, we're all here. It won't take very long. And I said, guys, I'll do it, but I don't have all of my protective stuff. So everyone starts diving into their bags, looking for protective things. And my friend [00:08:00] Ashley comes out with this little tiny popit she made in a class. It's probably four inches tall.

It is well loved. And she hands it to me and she says, here, you can use my protection popit. And I said, thank you. So we go upstairs and communicating with the doll, sort of necessitated holding the doll. So I can't hold the pop it and the haunted doll at the same point. I know first world problems, right?

So I don't know what to do with the doll. So I take the, not the doll, sorry, the pop it, so I take the little tiny protection, pop it, and I put it in the neckline of my shirt so that it's between me and the object that the spirit is attached to because I'm out of hands and. As I'm sitting there talking and all this time goes on, I didn't realize it, but the pop fell down my shirt into my bra, right?

And of course I have like [00:09:00] protective jewelry on that's tucked inside my shirt, so I don't even notice. So we're up there with the doll, with the haunted doll for like an hour. We have really good conversation, get a lot of interesting information. We come down, everybody hugs me goodbye. I hug them goodbye.

I get in my car and I'm driving home, and as I pull into the driveway, I get a text from Leigh that says My pop is in your boobs.

Had so much magical rud. On my person that I did not note, remember, or notice that there was a four inch pop, it stuffed into my cleavage 

Jennifer Taylor: and 

Tava Baird: I just started laughing. Like, what do you say to that? Do you be like, uh, I'm so sorry. I'll clean it off and give it back to you. I literally kind of pop it wedged in my breasts.

And so I was like, honey, we are going to trademark this boob poppets for when your hands are full of haunted dolls. [00:10:00] Um, and, and start our own little, uh, business that is, uh, tiny, tiny protective people that you can jam into your underwire. Um, yeah. So anyway, that was yesterday. We inadvertently invented boob poppets.

Jennifer Taylor: That's fantastic. Well, it's funny, I know so many people that like walk around with crystals like stuffed in their bras. Mm-hmm. When I used to do, talks about crystals and things at, the, at that shop where we both used to ven, Yeah.

And there would be people and they, we would start talking about crystals and, and what kinds of crystals. And there would be like five women around. And we're, we're standing there talking and next thing you know, everybody's reaching into their bra and pulling out handfuls of crystals. They're like, oh yeah.

I always walk around with one of those and they like, just reach. And they're like, well, where else are we supposed to keep them? 

Tava Baird: It's actually really funny. Yeah. Joseph was like, it's not fair. Women. [00:11:00] Like, he goes, how many of you witches have stuff jammed in your brass? And we're like, oh dude. He's like, it's not fair.

Men don't have that. I'm like, yeah, men got a lot of other advantages other than extra keepsake space. Yeah. 

Jennifer Taylor: I think, uh, I, I think they, they have more than enough. 

Tava Baird: Uh, I think, I think I just got the brand name. Titty. Talismans. I think that should be what it is. What do you think? 

Jennifer Taylor: That's fantastic. 

Tava Baird: Anyway, so.

Oh yes. Goodness. You, you know, you're a witch when you have crystals an entire four inch pop it and a bunch of other stuff crammed down the front of your shirt and don't notice. 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh, that's fantastic. I love it. So today's gonna be another adventure. We really, we have some ideas, but, we're gonna just kind of see where this goes.

We both had so many things happen that I feel like any number of wacky, Extraordinary kinds [00:12:00] of things are likely to surface as a result. So we're just gonna go ahead and move into, me singing and just as always inviting Sam Isle and Michael and Gabriel to sing through me and bring through whatever energy is in the highest good of this session, this conversation, and setting this space for all of us to be here together and learn and expand. [00:13:00] [00:14:00][00:15:00] [00:16:00] Oh.

Tava Baird: Okay, [00:17:00] so there's a story. Jen, this is Jen's story. Um, it's a really interesting one and, I must admit, I heard the story over Marcos, just this morning. and Sam Mayel was speaking to me a little bit about them before we got on the podcast. So, the words I just got from him are sort of a continuation of what he was saying.

but I think you all really like it and it's on the topic of miracles. And, then would you like to start with that super interesting number and where it led you? 

Jennifer Taylor: sure, yeah, absolutely. Um, gosh, so I think I talked at one point about how I had been in a dream class and I, I've been working with dreams and I found that dreams have come up with a lot of really important messages for me and for everyone.

I think they do. Um, and I, I woke up maybe a [00:18:00] week ago and the only thing I remembered from my dream was the number 2 5 2 9 0, the number of growth, the number of lessons. And I woke up thinking what in the world? But immediately, I felt how important it was, but I really didn't have a good sense of what was happening.

but this number really stuck with me. And so I thought, okay, I got up and immediately wrote it down and I had multiple feelings about the number when I woke up. And when I have a dream or something like that, one of the things that you can do is tap into how you feel around it.

So it may not be something where you have any sort of instant understanding of a message, but if you can immediately record some of the things and how you feel around it, that that can be a place to [00:19:00] start. And I had a couple different feelings. One was the idea that the growth and, you know, a number of growth and lessons that these were hard lessons.

It, it was like something where you have to learn these lessons, you have to go through this in order for the growth. and so there was some kind of trepidation and feeling of work around that. I also had a feeling that the 2 5 2, it felt like balance in some way to me. And the nine zero felt like nine being the end and zero being the beginning.

But outside of that, I didn't really have much of anything. And I was telling, my husband about it. I was telling, Tava about it, and his first instinct was to Google that number and just see what happened. And the thing that really stood out to him was that it was a postal code for a city in Mexico.

And I [00:20:00] definitely have a strong, ancestral sort of connection there. Not in my biological lineage, but there is a real soul remembering. I feel like I've had a lot of lifetimes in Mexico, in sort of like a, a Mayan medicine person, shamanistic kind of background. And so the fact that there was something in Mexico definitely resonated.

And he was saying that the thing that that city is most known for is this specific type of dance that is said to have kind of originated there. And there are lots of stories of historians have said no, it's, it's mainly influenced by things from the Spanish conquistadors and stuff, but it's, the town really identifies with this specific, spiritual dance.

And I believe it was called the Matachines. And it's specifically done. In celebration of the, uh, Virgin of [00:21:00]Guadalupe or our Lady of Guadalupe. And so I thought, okay, well maybe I need to look into, there's something about dance because you know, you know, obviously there's lots of dance stuff with me. So that kind of really stood out where it was like, okay, maybe there's some sort of lesson, there's something around this dance.

but I hadn't really done anything with it. I hadn't gone into looking it up or watching any of the dances online or done any of that yet. And I was sitting around the other day, and I know we've mentioned the Cardinal before. I'm sitting on the couch and the cardinal starts pecking at the window again.

And I was like, oh, what do I need to do now? Like, what's gonna happen? And the cardinal tends to be a representative of my ancestors. And then I realized, oh my goodness, today, Saturday, Saturday's my day, where I have my practice, where I go down to the garden and I connect with the ancestors. And I hadn't [00:22:00] done that that morning because the weather was really terrible.

And I thought II, sitting down there is gonna be too distracting because of the weather. And so I thought, okay, I'm gonna sit here and I'm gonna connect with my ancestors and I. Did like a shamanic journey where I envisioned myself getting up, walking the path down to the garden. I could hear the sound of the garden gate opening and clinking.

I sat there and felt all the feelings. I was like, okay, I'll connect with the ancestors like this. And I ended up having this whole big experience of, it was like the ancestors were sending in all like, kind of flooding me with all of these images of old really painful, difficult memories and feelings.

And it stirred up all this stuff in me. And I was like, oh boy, this is a lot. I mean, it was like the, the deepest, most painful things that I have. And they were just sort of [00:23:00] putting it all in front of me and I realized I need to create this, chalice and, do a, divine alchemy, high alchemy kind of practice where I put it all into this chalice and had it, it transformed then and through this whole process.

And so I'm putting it all in there and doing this. And at some point, so I'm holding this chalice and I'm holding all of the. The images and all of the emotions and things in the like container of my awareness. And I'm doing these divine alchemy things. And at some point I see myself in my mind's eye, like, stand up and move over.

And I turn around and look and there's this old looking wooden school kind of chair, and on the seat of the chair is the number it was almost like sort of an industrial stamped kind of number is that number again, 2 5, 2 9 0. okay, you know, here it's coming up. I hadn't really done [00:24:00] anything.

I hadn't really delved into it. And it didn't dawn on me later too that the whole idea of lessons, and I saw that as being on like a school chair. And it was like I had been sitting on this and it, this is only just occurring to me now. I had been actually sitting in the chair with that number written underneath of it and holding this chalice filled with these really difficult lessons and these things that I needed to learn how to move through.

And I needed to learn how to move past all of these feelings. And it just dawned on me that I got up from that and moved out. And that this is only really just occurring to me now. So I'd get up. And the process continues and there's all kinds of stuff in it, but it eventually, the cha sort of was sent off and, received by the Divine and there was all of this sort of cleansing of my hands and, 

And I was met by different [00:25:00] divine guides, which supported me. And I left it, but I still didn't feel great. It was like, I felt like, ugh, I've just kind of been, you know, trudging around in all of my deepest, most painful stuff. And I really thought that the energy of that by the end was gonna be like, oh, I feel so much better.

Everything's great. And it was like, yeah. And, and Keith was like, well, I think we need to let go of the expectation of how long it might take you to sort of recover from that and expecting that you're immediately going to just feel fantastic. Probably not reasonable or fair. So let's just let it go.

So I was like, okay, yeah, alright. I really just want it to be really totally over and, and let it go. But as I was just even telling him the story, I started feeling better, like just describing it. And so I was telling him and Marco and Tava at the same time, 

I, but I just, I started feeling better as I started going through it. So I was like, okay, I need to look more into this number. [00:26:00] There's still more that I need to, do. So I Google it again. I find that city, um, which I have no chance of pronouncing properly in Mexico, 

but I think it's near Mexico City. Okay. Um, so I googled the city. I don't really know anything much about it. I start watching these videos about the maus, and there's actually a whole group of, men who call themselves the Matachines and 

This is a sacred dance that they pass on from, grandfather to father, to son, to grandson. And it's a very sacred thing that they do. And they specifically do it, like I said, in honor of the, Virgin of Guadalupe. And there's a specific feast day for her that I believe is December 12th, and that's the day that they do this.

And so I was sitting and I was like, you know, it's apparently only done by men. It's not something that I really resonate with. I'm trying to figure out what it is. And I was like. [00:27:00] I don't even know who the Virgin of Guadalupe is. Like, maybe I should look that up. So I started looking it up and it is absolutely incredible.

It is this whole, story of, a man named Juan Diego who was very, very impoverished, kind of the, the very lowest of the social rungs at this time. And this is in 1530 something, I wanna say like 31. in like Central Mexico, at the time that the Aztec Empire, 

They were still doing thousands of human sacrifice, because the Aztec God demanded human sacrifice. And that was something that was common to the point of like thousands and thousands of people every year being sacrificed. And then the Spanish came in and conquered the Aztecs and kind of put an end to most of that around, I think it was 15, 20.[00:28:00]

And anyway, this man named Juan Diego is just, you know, this poor man, he's walking up over this hill and he has an apparition of the Virgin Mary. Who shows up to him and says, I want you to build a chapel here on this hill and in my honor, and this will be a place where people can come and receive my love and compassion.

And so he was, you know, overwhelmed. He ran into the, city where there was an archbishop and told the archbishop who was like, uh, yeah, we're gonna need a little bit more than that. Like, so he left really disheartened and then over a period of days, it wasn't very long. she showed up again.

it may have even been the next day. and was like, you need to go and try again. tell them I've come to you, And he goes again. And the archbishop, I think just by the fact that he showed up again was like, alright, he interviewed him and interrogated him a little bit [00:29:00] more.

It was like, okay, if this is the case, then we are going to ask her for a sign that is really clear and that will let us know that yes, we are supposed to build a chapel on this hill. And so, they put that out there and. and it had been a couple days and his uncle was extremely ill and like on his last days of life, like very, very ill.

And he was like, I, I don't have time to deal with this whole apparition stuff. I don't have time to deal with any of this stuff. And he had apparently had to go, I don't know if it was like to town, but he went a different route instead of over this particular hill where she had appeared to him thinking, I just need to avoid this like I just can't deal with this today.

And she appeared to him again and was like, you know, am I not your mother? in the sense of the great mother kind of thing. do I not care for you? your uncle is healed and you need to go to the hill and gather the roses there [00:30:00] and this will be your sign. And so this was in December, so there are, it was December 12th.

So even in Mexico, there are no flowers blooming in this part of Mexico at this time. The roses were Castilian roses, which were not even native to the area. Like there wouldn't have been roses, there wouldn't have been anything in bloom. And so he goes up on the top of that hill again, and there are all these roses in full bloom.

So he's gathering them up and she apparently appears again and is helping to load up his, there's something called a timma, which is like a really rough, almost burlap kind of cape, that they would wear and just kind of have tied around them to help to protect, them, from the elements.

And so if you imagine like a kid and you're trying to gather things and you don't have anything, you kind of like flip up the end of your shirt and stuff it full of apples and just sort of hold it up there as a, as a container.

This is what they did with his ilma. They sort of later lifted it up [00:31:00] and the virgin Mary apparently filled it with all of these roses. And so he has it, 'em all bundled up in this ilma and he goes running to the archbishop and is like, look, I have the proof. And he's standing there before him and drops the timma and all of the roses fall.

And as the rose petals fall, the Archbishop falls to his knees and is like, oh my goodness. And Juan Diego is trying to figure out why he was kneeling before him because he was like, you know, look, look at the flowers. Like this is the proof. But on his tiller. Um, where the roses had been all up against it.

When he dropped it. There was this whole image that looks like an old painting of, the Virgin Mary. And it has all of the symbols around it, all of the symbolism and all these things. She's, there's a moon and she's standing in front of the sun, and all of the symbolism in it are things that would apparently have been very [00:32:00] impactful and really understood by the Aztecs.

And there were, stars all around her, and I think she was standing on a winged serpent, which had a lot of meaning to them as far as conquering evil. And so there, this is on his ilma, like it's just there, like, it just appeared. And so they were instantly, convinced that this was a miracle despite the flies.

Like at that point, the idea of the flowers was like nothing compared to this. so they were incredibly moved by the fact that there was this big miracle and then, you know, built the temple and kept that tiller so people would come and, kiss it and, rub objects on it and touch it.

And it was really brilliant and beautiful. So this was 15, I think it was like 15, 31 or 37, somewhere around there, 500 years ago. And it was made of [00:33:00] agave fibers, which are known to deteriorate in a maximum of like 15 to 20 years. It is still in perfect condition. The colors on it are brilliant, and they have had now scientists and all of these people investigating it and looking at it.

And they're saying that what the, the colors are made of is not paint, and it is not a dye or anything that comes from anything on earth. Like it's not a vegetable dye, it's not a, you know, some sort of mineral. It didn't come from an animal. they don't know what the substance is that the color's made of.

There are absolutely no brush strokes on it anywhere. and they're saying it's impossible to paint something and not have some sort of hint of a brush stroke. So there, there's all this proof that it, it could not have been made by human hands. and then there are all these additional things. So the eyes, I think this is so [00:34:00] fascinating, the eyes of the woman.

So she's looking down and so it's not like she's looking straightforward and she has Eyes that you, you're really looking into and noticing. So hundreds of years later, they start, having the ability to magnify this image.

So when they get to the point where they can magnify it, I think it was in like 1830 something somebody noticed from a photograph when they expanded it, that it looked like there were reflections in the eyes, and then now They've magnified it, I think it's like 2,500 to 3000 times magnification.

And in it are these reflections, these images of what looks to be the people that were in the room at the time that he dropped thema and the flowers fell. And it's been analyzed by all of these top ophthalmologists who are showing that it follows exactly the like kind of these like certain rules [00:35:00] or laws of ophthalmology where you know, if something is reflecting in someone's eyes, it's gonna appear on a certain part of their eye on one side and a different part of their eye on the other side.

Certain places in it is in or it's inverted. And so, these were things that were not even known in, in the 15 hundreds. And the eyeballs are so small that there's nothing in existence that would allow you to paint or create this. The other thing is, there's something about it there, and I don't really understand it the way that they were describing it in all of these ophthalmological, ophthalmology terms.

Um, but it, it had to do with basically that the eyes, you couldn't get the kinds of light reflections and the kinds of depth and what you see in them in a picture of someone's eyes. [00:36:00] That only happens when you're looking into a living eye. Like, and I, it, it's very hard to explain, but it had to do with the way that like the light was reflecting off of the back of the, I don't know, I'm gonna get this wrong retina.

I think maybe, you know, it was like out, off of the back and how that reflects into it. But that what you see in that image is something that you only see in a living eye. so there's, there are all these aspects to it. It's still in incredible conditions, despite the fact that it should have completely deteriorated.

people say that it also maintains a constant 98 point. I think it's six or seven temperature, despite the temperature around it, it has been exposed to, natural light, sunlight, people touching it and kissing it. all kinds of things for hundreds of years. Like now it's being preserved, but it hasn't been for years.

And it, [00:37:00] it should by all means, even if it hadn't deteriorated, it should be completely blank. Like you, everything should have faded. Yeah. There's apparently also a level of iridescence to the paint that you only see in natural things like, a butterfly wings or that kind of thing where it changes slightly depending on how you're looking at it.

oh, and so the other thing about her is that the way that she appeared was as a mixed race, peasant kind of girl who was a mixture of the native people blood and the, Spanish conquistador kind of, uh, people who had now come in. And so, she had appeared as, you know, one of them and one that was even mixed race, which, you know, at that time would especially have been frowned upon.

and so during that time, during the time, I think it had been like 10 years roughly since the, the time that the Spanish had arrived. They had been trying to convert people to Catholicism, but hadn't [00:38:00] really had you know, a lot of luck after this happened. I think they said like 9,000 people were baptized in the next 10 years because so many people were converted from this miracle and this image.

Oh, the other thing, the stars. So they're looking at the stars that are around her and now, you know, they have the ability to go back and say exactly what the constellations were, exactly how the, what the stars, the sky looked like on that particular day back in the 15 hundreds.

And they figured out they are indeed constellations that were around her and they're in the exact configuration that they would've been in the sky that day. And the differences though, there's a Slight distortion in the, like the grouping or how close certain ones are as you get towards the edges and stuff.

And what they were saying is that is representative of the curvature. Like if you look at something through like [00:39:00]a curved kind of lens, the outer areas are going to be a little bit more kind of clumped together So the constellations are exact but shown through sort of a curvature but they're viewed not as the way they would've been viewed if you were standing on earth and looking up at them.

But if you were outside of earth looking in, that's so, and there are, that's awesome. So many aspects of these things. But I was really just really blown away and just the idea that I, I guess I didn't realize that there was evidence of miracles in that way that were tangible.

Like that there was something that was tangible that like scientists are like, we cannot figure out how this is, what it's made of, how it was even created. You know, it's, I think the eye is like around the size of a fingernail and it has all of this detail that you can't even see until you've magnified it like 3000 times.

I mean, [00:40:00] all of this stuff was really amazing to me. and then I was recognizing too, I'm being told a lot of things that feel similar, to what Juan Diego, it's being told, and then I'm thinking, okay, I may have just gone completely off on this random tangent that has nothing to do with the meeting.

Like, I mean, at this point I'm pretty far off of the zip code from that I had Googled. So I'm like, all right, well, Tava had suggested that maybe it's a Dewey decimal number because I've had a a dream that I later went back into in a shaman journey to get more information.

And I was shown the Dewey decimal number for a book in a library, and I was shown that dewy decimal number on the, the case of the book in a Dream. And then I later went back into it and was able to see the title. And so, she was thinking, okay, well maybe this is another one of those Dewey Decimal numbers because it is the right number [00:41:00] of digits we just need to put in, a period.

So I look that up and the Dewey decimal number 

so again, the number was 2 5 2 9 0. So the two 50 signify Christian pastoral practice and religious orders 2 52 specifically designates texts of sermons. The 0.90 further subdivides the category of texts of sermons to indicate memorial obituary, biographic or historical sermons. And we were kind freaking out about that because it was like, I'm sure there are thousands of sermons written about this experience and the revelation of Mary to, Juan Diego and it would be both historical biographical, Memorial because they have this entire, this huge, temple [00:42:00] dedicated to her and to this whole thing that holds tilma.

And so we're like, okay, we kind of expected the Dewey decimal number to take us in a completely different direction. And it circles right back around to something very specific and a lot like where I'd ended up. And then I was like, you know, something had shown up about. That being an angel number, I, let's look and see what the angel number thing is, and again, expecting this is gonna take us off in a different kind of direction.

And it says Angel number 2, 5 2, and numerology signifies a message of change, balance and new beginnings. And it was talking about when you get this kind of message, that it is encouraging you to navigate life's challenges with optimism and maintain balance and to trust in the support of your angels and the universe.

so [00:43:00] by that point we were just like, oh my gosh. So every direction that we went with this still kind of looped back around it all connected. and I feel like there were multiple other things that we, like connections that we drew that I'm not even remembering right now. but that got me thinking too around the, subject of miracles and messages, but also I wanted to share it because it's so fascinating in that there are so many different ways you can take messages that you get, you know, you can, you know, Google the, the various parts of it.

You can go with your feeling of it. You can have a shamanic journey around it. You can ask your ancestors to support it. And I, I feel like it's like one of those illustrations that if you're really working towards receiving this, and this is really something that is coming to you, that it's going to find its way, regardless of the direction that you choose.[00:44:00]

So yeah, just wanted to share that and I can't wait to hear what, what anyone else has. Well, it's funny 

Tava Baird: because as you were, as you were talking about the angel numbers, I'm like, let's look at Pythagorean Numerology, right? Oh yeah. so I I was looking at 2 5, 2 9. Oh so 2 5 2 9 oh. In Pythagorean numerology, you add all the digits up and you reduce it down to one digit.

So two plus five is seven plus another two is nine, plus another nine is 18 plus zero. So we end up with one eight, you know, basically like 18 one plus eight, which brings us down to nine. And nine is very much sort of like the prelude to completion. It says it denotes the end of one cycle and the beginning of another, and it is the number of wisdom.

And in witchcraft, like three is the number of a goddess you're looking at nine, which is three times three. A lot of times nine is [00:45:00] seen as a very sort of like female powerful, a very powerful goddess number. and that would certainly line up with the Virgin, right? 

So I was just like, oh, it's so interesting. And also you were talking about for the Dewey Decimal system, that this was sermons. What are sermons, if not an attempt to spread the word, right? There's speaking to large groups of people and getting messages out there. And so I know one of the things that hit me this morning when I was listening to this story is, that this story of a miracle was also meant to inspire you personally, that you are currently working on, building a new healing modality, and so this idea of spreading the word, the completion of an old cycle and the starting of a [00:46:00]new one.

the idea of, like miracles coming forth and that even when he tries to take a different path and avoid them, he's still there going, I'm sorry, you're not getting away from this. This is what you're meant to do. I was just like, this, this makes sense to me that all of this would be brought to you at this particular time.

Because all of those events that happened to him brought about the conversion, brought about a change, brought about inspiring thousands of people to sort of walk down a different spiritual path. And what are you working on now? A way to frame the lessons and experiences you have had so that other people who want to partake in them can, and you're moving out of one mode or time period of your spiritual training and [00:47:00] into a new one.

And so I was just like, the parallels there really struck me. this is what Samael had to say while you were singing.

"There is work to do in this realm, growth and expansion, settling and destruction, transformation and all that it entails. And as a human, your divine soul chose to inhabit an earthly form so that the experiences could be utilized to reveal divine patterns. You've chose to come here, and in doing so, were separated enough to forget.

One of the greatest pains in this realm is the pain of loneliness, but we cannot rescue you from it entirely. Lest, [00:48:00]the work you do be negated. It is a balance. How much may we interfere without tipping the scales? How much can we share with you without completely altering the environment? We are careful.

We speak softly, we move in natural spaces, and sometimes our presence manifests. What you have termed a miracle, an expression of the divine that many see, sometimes intentional, sometimes not. When intentional, they are meant for inspiration. Your men who place themselves high make rules. Consider whether an act is worthy of recognition.

I would argue child that you alone can decide what is a [00:49:00] miracle and what is not."

Jennifer Taylor: Wow. I I love that. And it's so funny. I was thinking about something this morning that I feel like perfectly aligned with what he was saying. I was walking the dog and yesterday one of the things I was talking about was how I feel like Horace is using the Mockingbird to communicate with me more and get my attention and, I'll come out and it's doing these elaborate dances and songs and things and on several occasions, it has really pulled my attention and it has felt really important and different in these moments, in the behavior in the song.

And it's showing up exactly where it did. And then I was walking this morning and there were Mockingbird on like. Three different houses doing their fancy dance, you know, doing literally their song and dance, trying to [00:50:00] get the attention of the females and stuff.

And I was thinking, you know, this is one of those things that makes you doubt and makes you think, I'm just making this up. You know, I wanted this to be something. I saw this as something that had anything to do with me when any, sort of person who's not in this sort of realm of work, if I were to describe it would be like, uh, yeah, they're out there doing it now.

Is that a message for you two? Like, are you being really, narcissistic and all of these things? But I was walking and I was like, no, it's the feeling and the knowing in it, you know, like I see them out here now and it's like they're just doing their, they're mocking bird thing.

But there's nothing about this that is jumping out at me going, this is important. this is something to pay attention to. This is a message, there's a connection here. And that feeling I have in my chest when that happens. And I was thinking, I was like, it's not necessarily [00:51:00] that it's a behavior the animal doesn't al always do, or it's a situation that, you know, couldn't be explained away by a million other people.

But it's that knowing. That you have in that moment that this is important. This is special. And I feel like that lines up perfectly with what Samael was just saying of like, you know, it, we don't have to be able to convince. 'cause so many times, you know, you'll receive messages and then there's this thought of what will people say when I tell them.

And most people would be like, that's ridiculous. You, you know, would talk you out of it and explain why that was not a miracle, why that was not, a real sign and that you're just making this stuff up. And so it's important to not tell those people because you know, they're not going to support it there.

I love that saying, don't go to the post office for milk. You know, don't go to those people for something, you know, they don't have. Right. But to, to remember you [00:52:00] are the one who knows. And I, I think it's just absolutely fascinating that Samael was just saying that 

Tava Baird: I have a little story that this reminds me of.

when I was in, I think I was in middle school, My dad was in the military, and one of the perks of being in the military is that you can basically get on cargo flights and fly around the world.

At least, I don't know if you can still do it, but back in the day, what they used to do is, say for example, you wanted to go to Germany, right from the United States. Well, there's a military base in Germany. They have these cargo flights where they're shipping things to the bases in Germany and they have, I think it was like 20 or 30 seats on them, and you can pay like nothing, like 50 bucks, you know?

And now the, the thing is, is that the cargo flights may not be on time. The airport you're waiting in is not particularly, comfortable. You just have to, [00:53:00] you know, be there and grab the next cargo flight to where you wanna go. But it does allow you to travel if you want to dirt cheap, right? So, my parents wanted to go to Germany and take my sister and I to Germany.

And so we got on one of these cargo flights and we went over and we spent about a week going, to Austria, going all over southern Germany. I have ancestors from that region and, sort of exploring. And, we went to New Stein, the beautiful castle that the Disney Castle is modeled after. but we happened to be over there during the week of Easter.

And one of the tours that we were on, was going, it may have even been the day we went to go see Stein, I think it was like the day before Easter or something like that, on the bus, on the way back, the, tour guide said, we're a little ahead of schedule. There's this really neat [00:54:00] cathedral off here in the middle of the country, not close to pretty much anything.

we're gonna go in there and let you all go see. it's supposed to have been the site of a miracle. So we all get off the bus and there is this just in the middle of a field, like on a farm, a full on cathedral. Like not in the middle of a city where you would expect it, but just this big cathedral and there's a farmhouse there.

And, then there's also this other little tiny, like, there's some outbuildings and there's this little tiny building and the cathedral is, you know, gold and marble. And I mean, it's huge. And so everybody gets off the bus and heads to towards the cathedral. And, I think I asked the tour guide, like, what's the miracle that.

Is supposed to happen. And she's like, oh, they're gonna tell you at the cathedral. and I said, well, I kind of wanna walk around a little bit here because we're, it's [00:55:00] quite a crowd heading for the cathedral. And she tells me that, couple hundred years ago there was this man and he went to a church yard sale and basically a yard sale.

And there was this old statue of the Virgin Mary there, made out of wood in bad shape. And he felt bad for the statue. And, even though it was kind of large and unwieldy, he, bought it, put it in his wagon and takes it home and has this, he builds this little tiny apple on his farm, like probably the size of what, like our master bedroom is, today 

and it's got like a couple of seats in it, but he cleans, he's cleaned the statue up and put it in a place of honor in the front of this little building that he's built. And he starts going outside [00:56:00] every day to pray. And one day when he's sitting there praying alone, he looks up and there are tears running down the statue space.

So understandably he freaks out, right? Because the statue's made of wood. And he goes all into the closest church and says, there's a miracle happening, with a statue on my farm. It cries. And they said, we're so sorry. But I think the rules for a miracle are like, it has to be witnessed by like a priest or like three priests and a nun.

there's very strict rules for what passes muster as a miracle. So they go, we're really sorry. You're not qualified to see this. Let us know if it happens again. So it goes back a couple weeks later, hears the statue crying again, and he's there like, it's real tears. [00:57:00] He can touch them. He's trying to figure out like, is the wood like emitting sap or something like, what's going on?

this continues to happen where he keeps going back to the church and going, no, I'm not kidding. It cries like, I guess eventually it gets to the point where, he's telling his neighbors and a couple of the neighbors come by and a couple of them witness it too. And that, I think at some point they managed to like drag a nun in there and the nun sees it, right?

But it still isn't enough. Now word is spreading all over southern Germany and the man comes out of his house one day and they're like hundreds of people on his farm that are all coming to see this statue. and they just keep coming and they're camping and they're living on his land to pray to this statue [00:58:00] in this itty bitty chapel.

So he goes back to the church and he's like, I'm so sorry, miracle or not, I've got a couple thousand faithful making pilgrimages to my farm at this point. You've gotta do something. And so at this point, the church, I guess comes out and is like, oh man. And the end result was they ended up building this massive cathedral.

I don't know that it was ever actually technically considered a miracle, but they needed to put something there because of the outpouring of emotion and devotion from the faithful. And so I, I say to the tour guide as everyone's headed towards the, I said, is the little building still standing?

Like, where is the statue? And she said, oh, when they built the cathedral, there was this huge procession, and they carried this little homely, hand carved wooden statue in. And she's at the front of the cathedral. And I said, [00:59:00] yeah, but that's not where the miracle happened.

Like, where did the miracle happen? 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. And 

Tava Baird: she said, that little building over there. So I go over and it's open, and I go inside and there's like four little tiny pews and this empty space where she used to stand. And I sat in there and I just couldn't shake the feeling that she was in the wrong place.

Now. Right, that she'd been moved from where that connection between the divine was happening. That connection is what motivated thousands of people over time to come to this place and practice their faith. And I then, you know, left and there were a bunch of tour buses at this place. I then, I sat in there for a long time and sort of meditated in there and I went outside and there was this man sitting on the ground carving crucifixes.[01:00:00]

And my parents had told me I was allowed to like, get one souvenir from the trip. And I decided that's what I wanted. So I got a crucifix from right outside the doorway and then I made my way over to the cathedral and I go in and it is just like a parking lot of people, you know, it's right before Easter there, you know, there are tons and tons and tons of, there's so many people in the aisles that you can't really move.

And here's this little wooden statue way far away from everybody, way up high. And everything around her is just gold lee and, you know, marble. And she looked so out of place. You know, it, it just like everything is this massive homage to what. They assumed was holy, which meant expensive and gold. But I [01:01:00] couldn't help thinking that that little tiny chapel where I was the only person in there was actually the holier of the two places.

And that was an experience that I've kept with me for a very long time. and so when Samael said, I would argue child, that you alone can decide what is a miracle and what is not, it didn't matter ultimately, whether or not the church declared that a miracle. The people came right. Word of mouth, spread it, and the people decided it was a miracle whether or not it was ever sanctioned by the larger organization.

and they changed and moved things. yeah. So that just, that resonated with me. 

Jennifer Taylor: That's, that's such a beautiful story. Yeah. I, it's amazing just hearing you tell it. I could just feel the, the [01:02:00] resonance with that little building and Yeah. Yeah. It, it's, I feel like it's such an example of how we take something simple and beautiful and connected and then, 

to take something and then alter it.

Think, oh, well it happened in this, really humble situation and this really humble surroundings. And then it's like, oh, well now that we recognize this as divine, we need to treat it the way you treat something, divine or miraculous. And then take it completely out of its original context, put it somewhere where it, it no longer, fits.

And then it's more about the gold and the marble and all the things and the original connection. Right. You know, is left. It, it reminds me a lot of what Samael talks about, about, you know, God is in the wild. You know, that Yeah. That humble little building that was built entirely from [01:03:00] just heartfelt devotion and love for this, statue and carving and his personal relationship it sounds like is what really drew her essence into that, and her outpouring of love.

Tava Baird: it's so interesting to me because, you know, I mean, I'm not an expert on miracles and saints, but I have heard and read a little bit about them. You never hear or, or rarely hear of the, the miracle stories never start off with there was an extremely powerful man practicing in a very expensive church, and then the divine showed up.

It's always the guy with the cloak and the sick uncle walking along his trail, or the man who picked up the statue at the church yard sale that nobody else wanted. And that is when the divine comes through and speaks, [01:04:00] that's when it reaches through. It's almost as if perhaps we should take the hint.

Yeah, that the place to spend our money is not on an eight story buttress building because we imagine that that is how the divine wants to be glorified, right? If the divine is appearing in humble places, then all of us living in a more humble situation. All of us spending our time trying to build community with few resources, all of us trying to reach out the to the divine.

It doesn't require a big title or a big church or any of that. The miracles happen in the grassroots right where we are. and [01:05:00] the fact that we doubt ourselves, I think is one of the reasons that sometimes they appear. Samuel says their encouragement often to us that we have not been forgotten.

That we are not alone. and he says, divine expression that many see, sometimes intentional, sometimes not. It sounds like every now and then you get a divine being who comes down and is like, whoops, I stepped there and now it's a pilgrimage site. My bad. Um, you know, like little bit too much energy came off there and now they've got a 500 year old agave weaving.

Um, you know, like, my bad, sorry guys. Um, but, this idea of inspiring on a smaller level, and I actually, I remember I had, this was a, oh, this was right after that portal appeared to me that one night with it had all the numbers on it. Mm-hmm. I don't know if you remember, [01:06:00] but I said something to Sam Ael about, why do I get to see this?

And he laughed and said something about who would believe you. Right. I, I find it really interesting, this idea of if we've been put here in Mortal bodies to do work, and if we can remember our divine form completely, when we're here, it negates the work that we're doing. We have to be in a forgetting state to discover the things that we are discovering.

But they don't wanna leave us without inspiration. They don't wanna leave us without connection. But it's a very delicate balance. If, you know, ate just pops down in the middle of a shopping mall and is like, Hey everybody, oh, you know, like, I'm gonna make the roof blow off and, all of you are suddenly going to be returned for five minutes to your [01:07:00]remembering state.

See ya. You know, like, that's too much. That's, that will alter the work that we individually are doing. So they don't wanna abandon us. They also can't come in too much. They can't heal every sick person. They can't stop every, natural disaster. It negates the human experience, but they don't want us to be completely gone.

And so they appear in a field of roses in the middle of December or at a church yard sale in Germany. 

Jennifer Taylor: So this seems like the perfect place to leave off for this week. This conversation, as it often does, continued for another hour and so this just seemed like the right place to leave things for now. [01:08:00] But I didn't want to leave you without a song. I did, sing at the very end of our conversation, but it felt to me like we needed to.

Have a song that really helped to integrate this particular section of the conversation to leave you in a really good, grounded and centered place and to really help to integrate specifically the messages and the energies and the stories and the things that you heard today. 

So wishing you all wonderful blessings and I hope that you enjoy this song and I hope that you join us next week to hear the rest of this episode.

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