An Interview with Jason Mankey, Author of High Priest, a Biography of Raymond Buckland

Exploring the Life and Legacy of Raymond Buckland with Jason Mankey

In this episode of Mystical Musings, host Jennifer Taylor and co-host Tava Baird welcome guest Jason Mankey, a prolific author in the world of modern witchcraft. The discussion delves into Jason's latest book 'High Priest,' a biography of the influential figure Raymond Buckland, regarded as the father of American witchcraft. Jason shares his journey in writing the book, his personal experiences with Buckland's work, and how he contributed to the American witchcraft movement. The conversation also touches on Jason's other works, specifically those focusing on the Horned God, and his upcoming projects. The episode wraps up with Jennifer providing channeled song, and Tava sharing closing words from Samael.

00:00 Introduction and Welcoming Jason Mankey
00:32 Setting the Energetic Stage
06:06 Jason Mankey's Journey and Works
08:01 Discovering Witchcraft and Influences
10:58 Raymond Buckland's Impact and Legacy
11:30 Writing the Biography of Raymond Buckland
25:41 The Horned God and Other Works
30:19 Starting from Scratch: Researching the Horned God
30:45 Inclusion of Ellen of the Ways
31:22 Influence of Horned Deities on Modern Witches
32:25 Clarifying the Horned God vs. Satan
34:05 Margaret Murray's Influence on the Horned God
34:56 The Evolution of Pagan Deities
37:05 The Revival of Pan in the 19th Century
38:39 Books on the Horned God
40:17 Writing About the Great Goddess
43:08 Upcoming Events and Appearances
46:52 Engaging Writing Style and Book Length Challenges
47:59 The Importance of Context in Witchcraft History
49:37 Online Presence and Live Streams
54:42 Closing Thoughts and Farewell

High Priest,  Raymond Buckland, The Father of American Witchcraft by Jason Mankey https://www.llewellyn.com/product.php?ean=9780738769691

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/panmankey

Jason's books include High Priest, The Witch's Book of Spellcraft, Modern Witchcraft with the Greek Gods (with Astrea Taylor), The Horned God of the Witches, Transformative Witchcraft, and The Witch's Book of Shadows.

Links to all things Jason: 

 https://linktr.ee/jasonmankey?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAaco5V8QG6xAdMXOruFjELJuOFvX94UlGmEyYYYJPMgFviItJpemsFl8jl4RlA_aem_ntFIztmU5exDmQT6fYsAgA

Thank you joining us today, remember to LIKE and SUBSCRIBE to keep up to date with your tribe.

Connect with your Hosts!

Tava Baird: tavabaird.com or https://darkflowerbooks.etsy.com.

Jennifer Taylor: Willow Ridge Reiki and Healing Arts https://www.willowridgereiki.com/

Transcript

Jason Mankey High Priest Interview

Tava Baird: [00:00:00]

Jennifer Taylor: so welcome to another episode of Mystical Musings where we are really, really fortunate to have Jason Mankey with us today.

And so, as always, I am Jennifer Taylor and we have 

Tava Baird: Tava Baird and Jason's here too. 

Jason Mankey: Okay. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here today. 

Tava Baird: we a lot of times say that we're excited. I am happy dance level, excited. Um, I just, I have been, we we're just thrilled to have you on.

but we wanna set a nice energetic stage for everybody. I've had a lot of people contacting me lately saying, is the energy weird around you? It's weird around me. There seems to be where we are approaching the beginning of our harvest season and energy is high, but there also does seem to be a little bit of extra chaos in everybody's life.

So, Jen, would you like to bring us [00:01:00] into a nice, clear space so that we can share all that Jason has to say with everybody? 

Jennifer Taylor: Absolutely. So, as always. Inviting Archangel Michael and Gabriel to sing through me. And Sam is always, always welcome to contribute. So let's see what they have, to bring through for us to set our space.

[00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00]

Tava Baird: Jen, that was lovely. Thank you so much. It was exactly what I needed. Oh, I'm so glad. 

Jason Mankey: that was absolutely beautiful. I could listened to that for another hour. That, thank 

Jennifer Taylor: you. That was 

Jason Mankey: fantastic. I like want to bottle that and steal it from you.

That was just so great. 

Jennifer Taylor: Well, thank you so much. that means a lot. I appreciate it. It's always such a strange thing to do sometimes in front of new people who are not, used to the way that we normally do things. So I'm like, yeah, okay. So I'm just gonna get up and sing and move all of a sudden.

I'm glad it felt good. 

Tava Baird: That was absolutely wonderful. I did have a few sentences come through, which is basically Semial telling me to be quiet and listen to Jason today. Um, does one often get told to shut [00:05:00] up by, um, entities? So I do. here's what he had to say. My greetings to the teacher.

A wise one who walks many ways. There is much to learn from him. Umshallah, he is blessed with a clear view of divinity and the true nature of wildness. Open your ears and try to be a good student. Yes. Sit at his knee if you can. So I need to shut my YAP today, um, which is going to be hard because I love this book.

Jason Mankey: I don't know if I can live up to that billing. I mean, that's gonna be tough. That's really gonna be tough. 

Jennifer Taylor: That is, quite the glowing introduction. Yeah. I tell you, I was thinking, what sorts of things do we say to introduce you? And I'm like, well, we can't top that really 

Tava Baird: well, clearly Sam Mayel is hardcore [00:06:00] in Jason's corner.

Um, but Jason, would you like to tell our listeners a little bit more? you actually have, I mean, this, the book that we're gonna be talking about today is High Priest, which is a biography of the late Great Raymond Buckland. I grew up on Buckland and Scott Cunningham and I cried reading this book.

It was so moving to me. and I'll probably cry during the podcast as well, but you have a wide body of work and you will be teaching At the Free Spirit gathering next week, and I'm so excited to, be community share teaching in the same location. Would you mind telling us a little bit about all of your work and kind of giving us the, elevator intro to you?

Jason Mankey: Wow. So this is my 10th book, which is crazy to me to have written 10 books. I mean, a lot of my idols didn't even write 10 books, and I'm really fascinated by history, but [00:07:00] also the practical application of things. So I try to mix the two things in my books. Obviously a biography is going to be a lot more history than anything else, but even in this, I chose some things that Ray did, which were magical operations to include in the book, to give people a taste of what Ray did in that sense.

Yeah, I love everything about magic and I love everything about witchcraft and I love sharing that. And a lot of my books too are written to answer questions that I had. When I was starting out 25 years ago or so, it's probably been longer than that, but we won't get into it. But you know, a lot of times you read things and like in, for example, the Cone of Power was something I would read about in books and it would say, build the cone of power.

And that'd be like, what is the cone of power? Because there were no instructions for that. It just said, build the cone of power. So I kind of like to write books that answered those questions that I had, because I usually feel as if they're questions [00:08:00] everyone else has had too. I discovered the Craft in 1994.

I was 21 years old. I bought a built book called Celtic Magic by DJ Conway. Yes. Another iconic nineties author. Yes. Celtic Magic is not a particularly accurate book when it comes to history. However, Conway was a really talented writer. And really shared a lot of wicked concepts, and I fell in love with it within 48 hours.

And it just sort of rearranged my world and I've been on this path ever since. Strangely enough, though, I found Celtic Magic because I was in love and I still am with the band Led Zeppelin and their lead singer, Robert Plant, loves Celtic mythology. So I thought reading a book called Celtic Magic would draw me closer to Led Zeppelin, and it led to a whole other thing entirely.

Tava Baird: Oh my gosh, what an incredible story. I, [00:09:00] gosh, I guess it's been about 36 years that I've been practicing But I have a little story When, you know, when you date people and you're pagan, you always do that thing of, at what point do I tell them I'm a witch? Do I bring it up over tacos on the first date?

Do I wait until they like me a little bit? Right? And it adds a whole other flavor to your dating life, especially back in like the 1990s. And I remember by the time I met my husband, who I've now been with over 20 years, we went out on a couple of dates and I finally just rolled up with the Big Blue Book by Raymond Buckland.

And I said, here. Read this. If you object to anything in it, we're probably not gonna work out. If everything in here seems okie-doke with you, we're gonna be fine. And so I kind of credit that Raymond Buckland got me my marriage. Um, you know, I literally use the big blue book as an accessory to explain [00:10:00] the path that I was on.

Um, but you know, this lovely little moon sign on the corner, that's how you knew in the nineties if a book was good, right? Was right. It was Cunningham, it was Buckland. And one of the things that bewitched me so much about your book is that I teach introductory. More advanced witchcraft classes all over my area.

And I'm always blown away by the fact that there's lots of people who have been practicing, who've never heard of Gardner, never heard of Buckland, never. And I always say, you guys, you've gotta know the history of what's going on. You've gotta know, not just the old archeological stuff, you know, which I love.

I got an archeology degree, but you've gotta know the modern movement and who brought it to us. And so we always start with Buckland and Cunningham. And so when I saw that you had a biography, I was like, oh, this is going on every reading list. What made you [00:11:00] say, I'm the one to deliver this to the world?

Jason Mankey: Nothing. So the 

Tava Baird: truth, 

Jason Mankey: the true story is, is that Lou Wellon approached me to write the book. So I had no desire to ever write a biography. It was not something that was on my radar. As I said before, like my books are filled with a lot of history and over the years I've gotten notes from Lou Wellen that says, usually history is boring.

This is actually okay to read. Which wow, what a compliment. Thanks so much. Yeah, so they were looking to do a Raymond Buckland biography because Ray had started a memoir before he died. The memoir itself was probably a first draft. It was not publishable. It was really, you know, I did this, I did this, I did this, and then, you know, boom, boom, boom.

No context, not a lot of emotion with it. And a lot of the memoir too was. And then in 1972 we bought a gremlin. And the Gremlin [00:12:00] got really great gas mileage, but the gremlin did not have a very good grip on the roads and you know, and it would go on for like nine paragraphs about his cars. 'cause he really loved cars.

Most of witches don't care about cars. So, so Luellen had that and this desire to do something with Ray and his widow was on board. she was a collaborator in a lot of ways because she was really helpful when I was writing the book and the book was written with her like nod of approval though she never made me change anything, which is really great.

But anyway, so they asked me to write the book and this was during COVID and I'd already like, had two other books that were in the pipeline and I was like gonna say no. And my neighbors were like, oh, Jason, this will take your career to a new place. You should totally do this. And I gave up and said yes.

And then it dawned on me after I said yes, that I had just agreed to [00:13:00] write a biography of someone who was very important. And I am not a biographer. And also I don't have money to go out to all the places that Ray went. So can I really do this? And I told my editor that I didn't wanna do it and was gonna give the advance back and everything else.

And she kind of guilted me into doing it. And Lou Wellen coughed up some money for some travel expenses, which I probably shouldn't say out loud 'cause they don't, they rarely do that kind of thing. And so I was back on board and I went to the Buckland Museum. Which is in Cleveland, Ohio. And the Buck Museum has a lot of ray's.

Personal effects. Yes. And correspondence and other things. There's a lot that's out in the museum. And then there's a whole treasure trove of other things. And I went there to do some research and I found some letters from Gerald Gardner to Ray Buckland and from Monique Wilson, who was Buckland's [00:14:00] initiator to Ray.

And then I was like, okay, I can do this. And then it was off, but I didn't want to do it. Now people ask me, what's the next biography you're gonna write? And I'm like, none. I'm never writing another biography 

Tava Baird: like Well's going Stop Cunningham biography. Yeah. I can just see it now. 

Jennifer Taylor: yeah, 

Tava Baird: I know Samuel told me to be quiet, but I do have to get this in 

The way I knew I was going to love this book and that I was going to love the way that you wrote. Was right on page one. I actually made notes in the book that said, approachable and lovely intro. You talk about knowing that Raymond Buckland is in the same place that you are and avoiding him. Yeah.

Because it's like you're meeting a hero. And for anyone who's listening right now, Raymond Buckland is the father of American witchcraft, and if you've ever, ever, ever emailed me [00:15:00] or, FaceTimed me or whatever, asking me for a book to read, because you're just starting out. You need to get High Priest by Jason Mankey right away and put it on your reading list.

That's the big book that I'm recommending. But I loved this story and I also loved that you said. Upon seeing him for the first time, I immediately felt all those lu well in publicity photos over the years had been lying to me because he looked so stern and mysterious in them.

Yeah, but what was he actually like? 

Jason Mankey: Well, so I didn't really meet him, meet him. It was a, you know, a metaphysical fair, right? Yes. So he's a special guest and mostly he's sitting behind a table, but he signed books and would talk to people. It's not like we got to like share ciders or something, but Right.

That's been great. But the, I always thought like the pictures of him made him look so serious. Right. And you'd see the pictures of him with the short beard and the very grim [00:16:00] look on his face and things. And I thought to myself, wow, you know, this guy's probably really gruff Right? And never smiles or cracks a joke.

And he was the exact opposite. He was like, like a little elf. I mean, you know, and, and he was not a very big man. He was kind of a short of stature, right? So, you know, 'cause I had always thought of him, you know, he's gotta be at least five 10, right? And I'm only five eight, so he is probably gonna glower down at me.

But he was super, like approachable and he has this good sense of humor and he smiles a lot. And that was never what you got out of Ray when you saw his pictures or you watched his movie because in 1990 they released a video of Ray talking about witchcraft and again. It's, you got to hear a little of his voice, which is a little, like higher pitch than I would've guessed.

But he just, he sits ramrod straight [00:17:00] and he just talks about the history of witchcraft in a very serious way. And it doesn't really have his humor in it. and I think Ray was a very funny person and for whatever reason, that never really came out in his writing and I'd never felt like it came out in his pictures.

But yes, um, yeah, he was not what I expected in the best way possible. In the best way possible. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. I think that's such a wonderful thing to get, to meet him and have that and, because I think so many times you'll hear about people that kind of meet these idols and these people, and they're kind of disappointed because there's a, a public presentation that's what they think everybody's gonna wanna see.

And then they meet them and they're like, oh, really? Like, he wasn't like that, or he was more. You know, could have gruff or less approachable. So it's really neat that you got to meet him. And he was so much more warm and open and, friendly and laughing and smiling. what a nice thing to discover.

And I can totally see [00:18:00] how you would get that too from a lot of the pictures and things. When I started looking up more about him, he looks like he would be scary to me. You know, it's like, oh gosh, I don't wanna say the wrong thing or, yeah. It looks like he would be very judgy in the pictures.

Jason Mankey: Yeah. he sort of looks like 1978 super occultist, right? Yes. That like a giant chain around his neck, you know, he's probably got a deck of tarot cards in his suit pocket, you know, like everything is really serious. And that wasn't really the case. But I'm also like, really bad about my idols. I'm like, I'm fan boy still.

Right. Like I like still geek out when I meet these people that I grew up on and I'm like in my fifties now, right? So, you know, I probably shouldn't feel that way. I probably shouldn't act like I'm, you know, 14. But I still do and get really excited when I meet these famous people of Wild Hutton is probably my favorite writer of all time.

And I met him [00:19:00] in 2022 and my wife filmed the encounter. I had a book sign because she really felt like I was gonna faint because I was so excited. And he said to me, he goes, Jason Mackey, I would recognize that hair anywhere. And I didn't know that he knew who I was. And I think I turned like Bee Red.

I mean it was, and yeah, instead of like being, oh, I'm so excited that this happened. I was like, oh my God. I run into a corner and hide. Yeah. 

Tava Baird: someone like Buckland or any of these writers that, that move us, I mean, I grew up in a very conservative Catholic, military household, and I knew really early on that I felt that I couldn't.

Continue to practice Catholicism because it wasn't for me. And I felt that I was being disrespectful to the people who truly believed it. And I went on a journey to try to figure out what I believed. [00:20:00] And I read pretty much the entire 100 section of the library. And I remember running across my first Raymond Bucklin book, which I think was, can you know, practical Candle Magic, right?

Yeah. Um, you know, so many of us started with that and opening it up and the way that he wrote and the way he made things that sounded so foreign sound so familiar. I remember thinking, oh my gosh, I felt like I fit in. I felt like there was a path for me, Buckland and Cunningham and all those other early writers.

I mean, I remember reading the Spiral dance and drawing down the moon and you know, magical Writes from the Crystal Well with that lovely purple cover. 

Jason Mankey: Oh wow. Yeah, yeah. 

Tava Baird: Like all of those and thinking. Like there's a place for me, Raymond Buckland, I mean as a 16-year-old, gave me license to go out and [00:21:00] be different and to be who I wanted to be until I eventually found a group that would help educate me and initiate me and all of those things, you know?

And I was a solitary for years and years and years and years, but I was happy that way. And Buckland is the one who said it's okay to do that. And if it wasn't for him, I would not have the life that I have now. I just, I can't get over what an impact this man had. You had something that you wrote.

About him towards the end of his life. And I believe it's during the time that they're getting ready to open the Buckland Museum. There's a very moving scene that you write at the end the person who is helping him to open the Buckland Museum, what is her name?

Tony Rotunda? Yes. Mm-hmm. And there's a scene there where she says something about the goddess being with him. Mm-hmm. And he starts to weep. [00:22:00] And I cried through the whole rest of the chapter because he, I mean, I don't think there's any way he could know the impact. I mean, I'm sure he saw lots of people of things.

The impact that he had and the choices that he had to make start a new movement here is, is breathtaking. I would love to know his impact, if you wouldn't mind sharing, maybe it's too personal, on your practice and your journey. 

Jason Mankey: So I read a lot of Raymond Buckland when I was starting out, but I wouldn't call him my favorite author.

That period I was a Silver Raven Wolf kid. I really love to write a silver broomstick. I liked how it mixed her personal experience with how to do things. Yes. And Ray was always very much sort of straightforward, but there were things in his writing though that would really stick with me and resonate with me.

There's one in the Blue book where [00:23:00] he talks about tarot cards and he says, read one book on the traditional interpretations of the cards and then put it down and never look at it again. And trust and, and basically trust your intuition while you're reading. And to me, I always thought that was brilliant advice.

Right. That's one of those things that. Totally stuck with me forever. So there were always little moments of Ray that were really lodged in my brain that I took to heart that were from then on a part of my practice, practical candle burning rituals. I think it, it's not, uh, until maybe like the second edition, but there's an appendix and it tells the story about how you can use magic to benefit your life.

And you can't use it to get lottery numbers and you can't use it to just have a new car show up at your house. Right? There's gotta be a path and a progression and to me that was a great explainer of what magic was and is, right. It, it can't. [00:24:00] Buy a snap, solve all your problems, but it can put you on the right path to having all your problems solved.

It can open doors, it can push you in the right ways, but you're not gonna light a candle and then stumble upon $4 million. Right. And I loved how Ray put that. So he definitely was one of those individuals who early on, had a huge impact on my craft. I mean, I'm Gen X kid. When you're a Gen X kid, you read Buckland's Big blue book, you read to ride a silver broomstick and you read Cunningham's Wicca Guide for the solitary 

Tava Baird: Ary practitioner.

Yep. Yeah, 

Jason Mankey: I mean those were the three that you absolutely had to read. If you, if you were an advanced Gen X student, then you read Spiral Dance and drawing down the moon by Margot Adler as well. Yeah. But yeah, and so I think all three of those authors had. You know, different impacts on people and they all had different ways of doing things too.

Yes. So you sort [00:25:00] of take what you want from each of them. And one of the things that I really love about them is Ray had good relationships with both of them. Uh, he lived in San Diego with Scott Cunningham. Right. Not in the same house, but you know, they lived in the same city. They did a lot of the same events.

They were very, very close up until Scott passed. And then Ray and Silver were really close. And I think Silver sort of missed Scott because she didn't really come out until 1990, I think was when Ride a Silver was published. Sounds right. And by then Scott was sick and Yeah. Right. So he's out less in public.

But Ray had those relationships with both of those people, which I really love. 

Tava Baird: Now, if you don't mind, I know it's not in the high Priest book, but I've been looking at all the things that you're teaching and as I keep running into more and more people who have encountered you, you write quite a bit about the horned God, do you not?

Jason Mankey: I, that is probably the thing that I'm most well [00:26:00] known for. 

Tava Baird: I would love, if you don't mind, would you mind telling us, just giving us a little bit about your books that pertain to that? Because I know we have listeners who will go, oh my gosh, I totally wanna hear about that. 

I get approached by people all the time saying, you know, it's lovely that there's so much goddess stuff, but have you got anything with antlers on it? You know? Right. And so I try very hard to do equal representation and, you know, to make sure in the things that I do that there is, lots on, you know, Cernnunos and all of those things.

But I know we have people who listen to the podcast who are interested in horned. God, would you mind talking a little bit about those books and your writings and your work? 

Jason Mankey: I can talk about the horn, God and, and that project for like an hour. So if I start rambling, you just, you know, snap me out of it and things I got into witchcraft 'cause I fell in love with the goddess and all I wanted to do was goddess, goddess, goddess for a couple of [00:27:00] years.

And then there was this weird kind of pull that I felt, it was this like kind of knocking at the door and I felt the the great God pan. And I wanted nothing to do with pan. I mean I was president of my Methodist church youth group. Anything with horns or antlers just was sort of frightening to me. That was not what I was interested in.

And I tried to ignore it for a long time and then I found out that I couldn't ignore it. That it was really something that wanted to be in my life and it was something that I really needed to be in my life. So I started doing horn god workshops 'cause nobody else was talking about 'em. And I started doing those long before I should have been doing those.

And they were terrible. I'm sorry, I saw them 20 years ago. Didn't really know what I was talking about, but I liked, as I said before, I liked the sound of my own voice. Um, and then in 2005 I was at a festival called Pantheon. And by then I'd started doing workshops in a much more serious way. [00:28:00] And I was getting better at them and the information was much more factual, et cetera, et cetera.

And Christopher Penza was there and he was at my workshop and I did pretty well that day and he sent me like a note, you know, or I think it, oh, it was this blog. It was this blog back in the day. And he wrote, I went to this workshop by this guy named Jason Mankey and it was this really great workshop and hopefully, he publishes a book on the horn.

God. And I had started a book on the horn, God at the time, and was not really good. And my writing was not as good as it should be 'cause I really wasn't doing it very much. I just thought I could go in and. You know, crap out some words and it would be fine, but writing is something you need to do with some frequency to get good at it.

But I sent it to Lewellen and they said no, and I self-published it and I would sell it at festivals and then I kind of stopped selling it at festivals 'cause you know, it's poorly edited and things, whatever else. And then I'm in the shower, I think in like 2019 [00:29:00] or something and I had decided I was never gonna try to rewrite that book, but all of a sudden I had like this outline of.

This is what I would do if I was gonna write a Horn God book. And I ran outta the shower and I'm sitting in front of my computer and I'm dripping wet and I'm just B here's the outline. And I sent it to my editor at Louellen, who was the one who rejected my first attempt. 'cause I had sent that to Louellen.

So she writes me this big, long email, like, how is this gonna be different from your last one? And then she had excerpts from the one that, that she rejected. 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh no. 

Jason Mankey: Yeah, it was, she saved it. Yikes. Yeah, it was painful to read. I mean, it was, it was pretty rough. And then I was like, well, I'm a much better writer now.

And Lou Wellen didn't publish that kind of book. If you go through the history of Lou Wellen, they did not publish books about male deity. There was only one that I'd ever seen. And that was DJ Conway's Lord of Light and Shadow, I think, or something like that. 

Tava Baird: I was gonna say, I don't think I've ever heard of that [00:30:00] one.

Yeah, you've heard of DJ Conway, but I don't know that I've ever heard of that book. 

Jason Mankey: Yeah, she did another one called Maiden Mother Crone. Okay. So she had like a God book and a God book. And, uh, loon eventually said, yes, you can do this. And I was like, really excited. 'cause again, like they'd never, they didn't really do this kind of book and I did not use my earlier draft at all.

I, I set that aside, I started all my research from scratch and I wanted to write a book about this bigger construct that we call the horn God. But also to do that you have to talk about sort of the individual pieces, pan and chronos. I, to me also, you've got the God Hearn in there, the green man who doesn't really have horns, but it's kind of, you know, on the periphery, tangentially there.

Tava Baird: Yeah. 

Jason Mankey: Yeah. I also decided, and this got me some one star reviews on Amazon, 'cause my book was too woke. I wanted to include Ellen of the Ways because Oh yeah, Ellen is, Ellen is a antlers, right? Mm-hmm. [00:31:00] To me. You know, she's a part of the modern story. Yes. Or she wouldn't be there. She wouldn't be on all these shirts that people are wearing.

You couldn't buy statues of her on Amazon and at bookstores and things. Right. So now you 

Tava Baird: can. And now you can. Right? 

Jason Mankey: Like, yep. So to me it was like, well, she has to be there. Right? Because she's definitely a part of this modern story. So I wanted to tell that story. Horns in the ancient world, you know, certain horned and antler deities and you know, there are other ones.

You know, that maybe you want to talk about, but to me, I wanted to talk about the ones that I think have influenced self-identified witches the most. You know, some people are like, well, you didn't write about Indian deities in here. And I'm like, well, I don't really think that they've influenced most people that we know who self-identify as witches.

Yeah. For better or for worse, that's often very European. Yeah. You also have issues of cultural appropriation and things, you know, and I got some weird comments about that too. Like, this dude apologizes for being European. [00:32:00] And I'm like, most of the book is very European. I don't know, like, like people just like to complain.

Tava Baird: Yes, yes. Yeah. 

Jennifer Taylor: I know we have a real mix of listeners who, some are very much on the pagan path and some have been, you know, there for many, many years and some are just new to kind of all of this and trying to incorporate and figure it all out for those who. Don't have any idea what we're talking about when we say the horned God.

could you kind of give your little speech that you would give to somebody who comes up and is like, oh my gosh, does that mean you worship Satan? Kind of thing. You know, it's like, what is that? 

Jason Mankey: I used to think the answer was really easy and was cut and dried. Now I think it's a little more nuanced, but the horn god is the god of wild spaces.

the God of, you know, people always, wanna say sex and things, but I always think that's kind of limiting God of pleasure, God, of enjoying your physical [00:33:00] body in a lot of ways. And to me, the horn God is our connection to the natural world. I mean, if you look at other religions and the vehicles that they have for commuting with the natural world.

They often lack a piece, right? I mean, Jesus is nice, but he didn't say, go out into the woods and be serene with me. Who is king of all the trees? You know? Like that's more like the horn God, right? Yeah. So sometimes I think of him as, deities that are antler or horned that are akin to nature. And then there's also sort of a horniness.

For a long time you would hear witches say the horned God is not Satan. It has nothing to do with Satan and or the devil. Usually they used the devil and Ray Buckland was one of those people that was, he was adamant about that. But if you really look at the horn, God, there's a lot of folklore. About the devil that is kind of in that greater [00:34:00] idea of the horn.

God, some of it comes from really speculative history and anthropology. Most notably the work of Dr. Margaret Murray, who was a renowned mm-hmm. Egyptologist, but really not a renowned witchcraft historian. But her ideas resonated with people in magical ways. And I think they helped create the world that we live in today.

And, you know, she would take things from the witch trials where people said that they were worshiping the devil and then all of a sudden people would incorporate that into their ideas about the horn God or how they honored him. so, you know, God of wild spaces, you know, mostly really not the devil, but there's a little bit of that DNA in there.

And when I was writing the book, I wanted to address that in an honest way too, because a lot of writers don't, 'cause it's very much. It has nothing to do with it. And then I'm like, but Margaret Murray, it's right there. It's kind of there. 

Tava Baird: Yeah. And also we look at, and we talk about this a lot of times on [00:35:00] the podcast, that nothing really ever dies.

It just goes underground and is converted. And as you have one faith come in and try to take over the spaces where previous faith was, their worldview gets overlaid on what is actually there. So if you're trying to convert people away from a nature-based faith, at times those old gods get demonized. Oh yeah.

and so you get, you know, like if you actually go back and look, you know, I took tons of biblical story studies classes to go along with my archeology degree. if you actually look back at the old texts. Satan and the devil are not described as having horns, but to a certain point when really big conversions were underway, and then suddenly he's got this description that [00:36:00] looks a lot like the gods they're trying to convert people away from and it, that's always one of my favorite things to research is the concept of hell and all of the different places that the current concept that we have of hell and what it's supposed to be came from, and the mistranslations along the way and the adaptations.

And how at a certain point when the Bible was converted to English, they took five different words that all meant kind of a version of hell and shoved them together. You know, sort of like if you take, uh, the word squirrel, the word dog, the word cat, plow and horse and go, ah, they all got four legs. They're all mammals.

Let's all turn them into one word. Yeah. There were nuances there that were lost. 

Jason Mankey: Yeah. And there's, there's like a yearning though, I think when it comes to pagan deities, right? I mean, they'll be kind [00:37:00] of pushed under and then especially with the horn. God, this is one of the things I love about writing about the horn.

God, in the 19th century, all of a sudden there's this renewed interest in the Great God pan really from out of nowhere by a few romantic poets, 18, 20 or so, and then all of a sudden for the next a hundred years. Every poet writes about this Greek God who was really pretty low in the pecking order. Yeah.

Of Greek gods, you know, no offense to, to my friend, but you know, we're talking, we're talking a B minus God. Right. When it comes to, how you look at deities, not, not on Olympus. Yeah. Didn't have famous children. Right. You know, stories were mostly about like losing courtships, not about gaining them.

Right. I'm gonna turn into some reeds to hide from this guy. Not the best story necessarily, but all of a sudden, you know, people are worshiping Pan through poetry because they need this connection to nature [00:38:00] that their current circumstances lack. And I, I find that really powerful. And one of the things too is as witch and not writing as an academic, I can quote sources and share this, but then I can say things like.

You know, was this being done? Because Pan is whispering in their ears, right? is his power moving through the world again because it's really needed at this particular period of time. And reading somebody like Professor Ronald Hutton who's writing for Oxford Press, he can't say that. But I think that in something like the Horned God of the witches, which I'm always really happy about.

That's awesome. Yeah. 

Jennifer Taylor: So what are some of the titles of the books that you have that are talking about the horned God? If people are like, yeah, I'm feeling that I wanna learn more. 

Jason Mankey: The, the big one is the horn God of the witches. That's the book. You know, there's also modern witchcraft with the Greek gods, which I wrote with astray Taylor.

And of course Pan has a chapter in that. I think of Dion [00:39:00] Isis as a horn God in a lot of ways because there is this emphasis on creation and a lot of his worship has to do with phs, which are a horn God thing in a lot of ways. So, you know, he has a big chapter in that book, you know. But the rest of them not so much because the rest of them are more about doing though.

You'll see rituals where you might have like the horn God make an appearance like the Witch's Wheel of the Year, which is my Sabbath book. a transformative witchcraft. There's a ritual inspired by Margaret Murray, I think, in the in there. Yes. The other is, and to me, Margaret Murray's writings about the horn, God really helped shape the modern interpretation.

Of that figure. So, you know, it kind of shows up in bits and pieces in other books. But he has his own book, right? Or they have their own book, really? Because, you know, when I think of it with Ellen and stuff, right, I mean, and also female versions of Chronos, [00:40:00] female, green Men and female Pans. We're all running through the early modern period slash ancient world.

So yeah. 

Tava Baird: Awesome. So, so now that High Priest is out, what are you writing now? 

Jason Mankey: Right now? Or are we not allowed 

Tava Baird: to know? 

Jason Mankey: No, no. It's called The Great Goddess of the Witches. So it's my goddess book and. It's, it's harder to define that idea than the horn God. 'cause you can always go back to, oh yeah. Horn's on his head, right?

Or horn's on their head. You know what, when people say that, you know, I'm, I'm praising the goddess, or today we're doing ritual with the lady, what are they looking at? What are they talking about? You know, there's these big sort of archetypal ideas and that's actually the wrong definition of archetype, but it is how a lot of people use it today.

So screw the person who got mad at me for using it that way once language is about being understood. So there's these big archetypal ideas. You know, you see, uh, maiden Mother Crone was a really [00:41:00] big one for a while, The Goddess. But what goes into the goddess? It's sort of like the horn god, what individual deities really kind of make up that larger figure.

So with witches, obviously, you know, Hecate is one A, uh, Diana Artemis Arad. Kind of all those three are all kind of mixed together. I think Aphrodite is one of them. I've also included some things that I think are unconventional because a lot of witches love Lilith, for example. Yeah. You know, and it is really weird to go to that Jewish slash Christian.

Well, and today too. You also see. Holy death. Santa Marto like is also this other figure that is being honored by a lot of witches. And there are books written basically for witches now about her Holy Death. Uh, so to me that's a part of this bigger picture. And then of course [00:42:00] goddess is like the Morgan and Goddesses, like I think Brigid, the, you know, Irish goddess slash Saint slash Lois, right?

So I'm writing about those bigger ideas and then the, something about the individual deities as well. I'm supposed to be done with that by Christmas, which 

Tava Baird: I was like, that's a lot to bite off there, that Wow. 

Jason Mankey: Yeah, it is. You know, it's a thing too, like when you write about history though, like. How many words, for these deities, right.

And you know, I wanna write about so many, but I'm thinking, you know, maybe it's just 2000 words and like Pan I think ended up being like 4,000 words for a chapter. So I feel like I'm giving them short script, but also like, if you wanna read more about Hecate, there are 10 books just about her. So I'm just kind of looking at where she fits into this bigger idea.

Right? 

Tava Baird: Yeah, 

Jason Mankey: yeah. But it is, it is a lot to chew on and I'm kind of like [00:43:00] regretting my decision to write this as, as I go through it. 

Tava Baird: So you now have, not to count down, but you've got a couple months to finish that book up. I know you're spending next week at Free Spirit gathering if people wanna find you at other events or things that you're teaching.

What do you have out on the table the next couple of months as we roll into that lovely witchy? September, October. Samhain season. 

Jason Mankey: So I go to Free Spirit gathering, and then I'm staying on the East Coast for another week. I'm doing CW PNS Harvest Gathering, which is in Orange, Connecticut. So if you live on the West coast, Connecticut and Baltimore or Maryland are close together in your brain, even though they're couple hundred miles apart.

But you know, but you're, so we live in California, everything is so far away. So a couple hundred miles is nothing. So that's in August. And then in September I am at the [00:44:00] Spokane's Pagan Pride Day, which is September 6th. And then the following week I'm in Reno for Reno's Pagan Pride Day, which is the 13th.

And then I think I'm somehow home for all of October, and then I'm doing the Occult Fair in Las Vegas, Nevada, November 22nd. 

Tava Baird: Wow. You are moving around. 

Jason Mankey: I do about 13 events a year. So yeah, I mean, it's, it's a lot of, you know, your weekends are away from home, but I love people and I love talking about this stuff, and it's a blessing to really be able to fly around the country and meet hundreds, if not thousands of people in a given year.

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. And I have to say, while I know you were really reluctant to, write this book, I'm so glad that you did, because I think they picked exactly the right kind of person to write the book and have it be engaging because I am [00:45:00] not a history person by any stretch of the imagination. And. The idea of reading a big, thick book of a biography of somebody was like, oh, this is gonna be rough.

Like, this is gonna be hard. But I think because you're not a biography writer and nothing against biography writers, I really don't read them. So you're probably great, but I think that because you're not, the way that you approached it, it felt very, it was very approachable, very familiar. And within a short period of time, I felt like, yeah, like we're just kind of hanging out, hearing you tell me about him.

Mm-hmm. And it made it a really easy read, and it was enjoyable. And it, it was really nice to get to hear. Whereas, you know, Tava has grown up with all this stuff. I've only heard of him because Tava will mention him and, and talk about it. So it was really a neat thing to get all of this history, but kind of wrapped up in.

A story [00:46:00] and in a way that it didn't seem, um, you know, like, and then this happened and then this happened. And I, I was so happy early on to hear how you were like, I'm not gonna just list all of the things, you know, it's like, you know, he did this and this. It's not just sort of a list of facts, but it really gives you a feeling of who he was behind the books that, he wrote and what was happening in his life.

And it really is, an interesting and fun read and so different than anything that I had kind of imagined it might be. So, you know, for anybody who's just interested in wanting to get a sense of, how witchcraft came about in the United States and in, north America.

It's such a good way to get it and feel like it's just a fun kind of read and to get all this information. So I'm so glad that you acquiesced and I definitely see why they wanted you to be the one to write it. 

Jason Mankey: I try to write like I talk, which, you know, very conversational and for a long time that wasn't acceptable when it came to books.

Yeah. 

Tava Baird: And I [00:47:00] think the 

Jason Mankey: internet changed that with blogs and things, which really emphasized a more approachable writing style. And I thought that that was my strength, which is probably why my early books got rejected, but then all of a sudden that was okay. And with the Ray book too, there's a couple funny things you mentioned that it's Long Lou Wellen sent me, like my first set of notes after I sent it in and they were like, yeah, we want to cut 20,000 words.

Jennifer Taylor: Oh boy. 

Jason Mankey: Because I think that big books in the witchcraft world don't sell as well as shorter books. I really believe that. And so they were really worried about the length of the book. And so I went through it and they also said, you know, we want you to probably add some things. So when I sent it back to them, I think it was 20,000 words longer than what it was when I sent it to them originally, which I found pretty funny.

And they never cut any words out and I'd never really made a huge attempt to. So, yeah. [00:48:00] And also too, like with the Bucklin book, I thought it was really important to put Ray in context of where he was at, and where the rest of the witchcraft world was in the sixties and in the seventies and in the eighties and things.

And to me that's really important. So it kind of reads as a history of American witchcraft in a way, but also Ray Buckland's story of his life. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah, it does. And I think without it, you wouldn't have, unless you're somebody like Tava who knew all those things and was kind of a part of all that, you really wouldn't have the context to understand why his experience was the way it was without understanding the greater context of what was happening, in the witchcraft world at the time.

Jason Mankey: I also think too, is when we look at the history of witchcraft, we often look at Britain like, especially England. 'cause this all comes back to Gerald Gardner and Doreen Valiente and, and certainly they were the pioneers, but I mean, there are more witches in the United States, and I think it's flourished more here [00:49:00] than in the uk having been there several times.

No offense to my friends in the uk. I love you and I wish I lived over there, but, that's another story, but yeah. But we don't really talk about American, the history of American witchcraft as much as we probably should. 

Tava Baird: I, I just love how you took. An idol for a lot of us, and you let us see how human he was and you made it, you made his story so much more personal.

I learned off every single page that you wrote and I am so beyond delighted that you were able to come talk with us today. speaking of logs and web pages and things like that, um, where can people find you online if they wanna stay up to date with where you're appearing and what you're writing and things along those lines?

Jason Mankey: I'm on all the major social media platforms, usually at Pan Mankey, so my God Pan. And then my last name Mankey. I'm also one of three or [00:50:00] four Jason Mankey in the country. And I come up first in any Google search, much to the chagrin of the pastor in Indiana. I'm sure you know. Yeah, I've kind of come to dominate Google search for my name.

Tava Baird: Congratulations. Like that's a really big achieve there. What an 

Jason Mankey: accomplishment. 

Jennifer Taylor: Well, they can easily at least sort out if it's like, Hey, if you're searching for Jason Mankey, I'm the minister, not the witch or the witch, not the minister. So it makes it at least a fairly easy thing as opposed to Jennifer Taylor's, you know, of which there are thousands just I think in the state.

Jason Mankey: Oh, yeah, yeah. My last name is, not particularly common, so that helps. Yeah. Also, I do know that a manky is a Pokemon. If anybody wanted to throw that out at me later, I'm aware. I actually. Own several along with a t-shirt that says Mo manky mo problems with a picture [00:51:00] of the Pokemon on it. So there you go.

Jennifer Taylor: Nice. so is there anything else that you would like just people to know about you or to let people know about so that they can avail of themselves, of more Jason Mankey? Because I know after just getting to listen to you for this period of time, there will be people who are like, yeah, I want all things Jason Mankey.

Is there anything else that you're like, this is just something else that I do that would be fun for people to know about? 

Jason Mankey: I do a weekly live stream at nine Eastern, 6:00 PM Pacific Time called the Witches Movie Coven with Patty Negri, who has been on Ghost Hunters. And she just had her first Lu Wellen book come out.

Heather Green, who is also another writer and editor at Lu Wellen, uh, Richard Lale Lard, who's also been on shows like Ghost Hunters and Courtney Buckley, who was on the internet show, scared and Alone, where we talk about witch movies for an hour every Wednesday. 

Tava Baird: Aw, that's, so, that's a live 

Jason Mankey: stream too, so if we screw up, you see it [00:52:00] all very much live.

Oh, I, so that's, I'm so glad 

Tava Baird: I asked. 

Jason Mankey: Yeah, this 

Tava Baird: sounds awesome. 

Jason Mankey: It's really fun. And you know, there's also, you can watch the podcast or all the episodes are on YouTube, but the chat is always going and we're always responding to everything that's going on, so that's really fun. 

Tava Baird: I'm guessing hi Priest has an audio book version. 

Jason Mankey: It does. It does. Obviously I do not read it. The person who read this though has a Wikipedia page, which I thought was pretty cool. Like I guess he's an actor of some fame and he's an American, but apparently when I quote Ray, he puts on the English accent to quote, when Ray is there.

I can't listen to the audio books of mine because it's so weird hearing somebody read your words and they don't have your cadence. Yeah. I'm like, no, you should have paused. Why didn't you emphasize that word? It's a really strange thing. It's a really, really strange thing. 

Jennifer Taylor: I can totally see that though, because it's like, if it's [00:53:00] your words, the idea of like, I would not have said it that way.

I can see how that would, I think that would make me crazy too. 

Jason Mankey: On my Patreon, I read all of my books, so that's fun. so I do have a Patreon. I'm not really good at it, but I post something once a week and there's a lot of back stuff. And as I said, I read most of my books and then when I'm done I talk about, you know, how the chapter came together and while I'm reading it, sometimes I'll tell you my real feelings on what I just wrote, so you get a little extra commentary there.

It's only $2 a month, so it's super cheap. 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh, how fun. I love that. That's awesome. I absolutely love that idea. 

Tava Baird: I was thinking how many people listen to the podcast like in the car and I'm like, great. Now they can roll high priest out while they're in the car. 

Jason Mankey: again, that's another thing too that's so fascinating to me, and I know we're trying to wrap up, but also, back in the day, audio books really didn't exist like they do now.

And if you wanted an audio book, you paid $60 for a set of six CDs. Yes. Maybe you [00:54:00] went to a store that rented audio books like a Blockbuster, but for audio books. And now they're commonplace, you know? Yeah. It's like listening to a podcast. Yeah. and you can get a bunch of them for almost no money.

It's a completely new and different world 

Tava Baird: fantastic. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. I still call them books on tape, which makes my husband crazy. But I'm like, that's, that's how I do it. Because they were books on tape. You would buy your cassette tapes and I'd stop at a Cracker Barrel where they had a little lending library that you could get them and then put 'em in and drive on your, yeah, on your drive.

You listened to your books on tape, like 

Tava Baird: how it went, man, 

Jennifer Taylor: it's everywhere. 

Tava Baird: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, Jason, thank you so much for coming on and sharing with us. You absolutely made my month and, I hope you have safe travels. and Jen, would you like to sing us out for a little bit and then we'll all say goodbye?

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah, I would [00:55:00] be happy to. Yeah. And I am, I'm really so excited to have gotten to spend this time with you, and I'm gonna look into the movie time and, your Patreon. it sounds like such a cool thing to be able to hear the backstory and the stuff. And I think, 'cause I get a lot of that with Tava because as she's writing, she'll be like, oh my gosh, I just wrote these chapters with these people.

It's so fun to get to hear it, that the idea of getting the chance to hear what you're experiencing as you're going along. I am totally gonna look into your Patreon too. 

Jason Mankey: Thank you. As I said, it's cheap. That's, yeah, that's the thing about it.

It's cheap. 

Jennifer Taylor: Well, very fun. Well, yeah, I will go ahead and sing us an integration and closing song to send us back out into the world again. 

[00:56:00] [00:57:00] Oh.

Tava Baird: Thank you so much, Jen. That was lovely. 

Jennifer Taylor: Thank you. It was very different than I expected. I was like, wow, they've got a whole different tone tonight or today. 

Tava Baird: Beautiful. I have a few closing words, if you don't mind. Yeah. From our unseen friend here, and those words are, He must have been listening, [00:58:00] "run in the woods, children Run in the woods.

If you can place your feet on the paths of wolves. Race, the wind leap like the deer and glide like the crow, the gods you seek are in the green and growing. Thanks. This is your place. This is your circle, your coven, your home. Know that here is the place of great remembering when you wander and when you forget."

Thank you so much, Jason, for being with us today. And guys, we will put links to Jason's Patreon and all the books that were mentioned in free Spirit gathering and everything in the show notes so that you can go out into the world and meet him on your own. 

Jason Mankey: Thank you both. This has been just [00:59:00] terrific.

I've had a, a great time. You're really good at this. I, I'm inspired by the words and the songs and Oh, this has just been really, really terrific. So thank you so much. 

Tava Baird: Oh, thank you so much. And hopefully I will run into you somewhere next week. And if our paths don't happen to cross, I hope you have a fantastic gathering.

Jason Mankey: We are gonna meet and it's gonna be great. It'll be fun. Yeah. 

Tava Baird: Woo hoo. I can't wait. Put it on the schedule. Thanks so much for tuning in everybody. Thank you for listening every week and for how much you are helping us grow and for all the testimonials you've been sending us. We love you so much and we'll see you next week.