Samael, The Word and The Scapegoat

Join us for a special episode of Mystical Musings - this is the conversation that followed last week's episode.  Jenn and Tava were so deeply in the energy that more insights began flooding in and they just had to share! Beginning with a song from Samael and Archangel Michael,  the discussion winds through Michael and his sword to a deeper understanding of Samael as The Word.  Diving into ancient texts they bring new interpretations of biblical concepts, including The Word, and the origins of the words "daemon" and "demon."  Concepts from Sin-Eaters to Azzazle to Forbidden knowledge are explored and the hosts leave with a new and deeper understanding of it all.  Stay tuned until the end for a soul-soothing musical track aimed at balancing your energy after this enlightening discourse.

00:00 Introduction and Special Episode Setup
00:43 Channeling Samael and Michael for the Opening Song
05:39 Grounding Energy and Angelic Influences
07:49 Symbolism and Spiritual Connections
11:38 Biblical References and Interpretations
15:42 The Role of Samael and Misconceptions
30:38 Sin Eaters and Spiritual Burdens
36:10 The Weight of Blame and Sin Eaters
36:58 Exploring the Dimensions of Samael
38:05 The Watchers and Their Forbidden Knowledge
42:18 Azzazle and the Origins of Metalworking
44:39 The Duality of Healing and Sin
45:35 Metatron and the Evolution of Angels
54:34 The Demonization of Ancient Entities
59:31 The Power of Names and Language
01:05:46 Concluding Thoughts and Future Plans
01:08:46 A Soul Soothing Song 

Resources mentioned:

Soul Soothing Track:

https://amnivara.bandcamp.com/track/soul-soothing

Tava's Lilith Deck - referenced in podcast:

https://www.tavabaird.com/product-page/the-deck-of-rebellion-lilithian-cartomancy-deck-and-signed-book

Please remember this podcast is for inspiration, reflection, and entertainment only, and is not medical, psychological, or professional advice.

We are two friends sharing personal experiences and evolving perspectives as we learn and grow. This is not a substitute for your own discernment, inner wisdom, or qualified professional guidance.

Take what resonates, trust your intuition, and seek licensed support when needed, always honoring your own inner knowing and personal truth.

Thank you joining us today, you are a valued member of our tribe!  If you are enjoying the podcast, please consider telling your friends and sharing it on social media.  We would greatly appreciate your support in helping us reach others and spread our messages of worth, openness and exploration. 

Connect with your Hosts!

Tava Baird:   tavabaird.com or https://darkflowerbooks.etsy.com.

Jennifer Taylor:  Amnivara (previously Willow Ridge Reiki and Healing Arts)           https://www.Amnivara.com/

Transcript

Samael, The Word and The Scapegoat

Jennifer Taylor: [00:00:00] Thank you for joining us for another episode of Mystical Musings. This is actually the over an hour long conversation that Tava and I had after we finished the probably three hour long conversation that became the last several episodes. Uh, but we were so in the energy and so many things for flowing.

We just kept going and I hit record just in case, and it became. What I think is gonna be one of my favorite episodes, so I wanted to include it here, and after going through and editing all of it and being back in the energy again. I really felt called to channel a song specifically as the introduction to this.

So we didn't really do that as a part of this podcast because we at the time were really thinking, this was more of a just our conversation [00:01:00] afterwards, but it really felt like it warranted its own song. And so I invited Sam Ael to come in and sing through me. And prepare you for the conversation ahead.

And as I did that, I also found, I heard Michael as well, so I believe that they were both singing with me through me, um, for this song to prepare you. And so I hope that you enjoy the song and also enjoy the episode. 

[00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00]

Tava Baird: I'm wondering 'cause I mean, yes, we're tired, but I also tend to babble. but I'm wondering if it's because she's in the room. That's, that is the difference.

Like, because you know, he's talking about, she's grounding, she's stone. She brings us to Earth. [00:06:00] What did he say? I let her bring us back down from the skies. So if you think about our podcast, we get on, we're super excited. We sort of take off and then we're flying around with Samael and Michael for a while. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. And the energy just gets higher and higher and higher and higher. And 

Tava Baird: there are times where we call in Gabriel to soothe us or settle us.

He's not doing it the whole time. We're not calling him in the whole time. She's been in your room the whole time. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. And you know, Michael is like incredible and I've gotten very used to his energy, but his, he's always coming through in the podcasts too. Like Yeah. Can it being the thing that's spurring me to say something or sparking my memories and things like that.

And that is so he takes flight too. Yeah. His, his energy is very, very, very, very high vibration. It's like this Yeah. In such an [00:07:00] intense bright light. It's almost blue I feel like. And so then singing and having, like, I could still hear him ringing in my right ear and having her on the left.

And I think you're right. I'm pretty sure she came in and the first song because some of the sounds and the things that I recognized as her of like certain. short, like vowel consonant, like Na Ma or certain things that were coming through, I think were coming through and an influence from her in the beginning, because I recognized in the last song I was like, I think I was saying things kind of like this in the first one.

And it had also that higher thing. It's like they're the perfect balancing for each other. 

Tava Baird: I wonder if, you know, 'cause if you think about, okay, so, and this is gonna get a little abstract. So Michael's symbol is the sword right in witchcraft. The sword is representative of thought and intellect and the motion of [00:08:00]ideas.

Right? Really. And he's also, yeah, that's, it's the representative. When you look at a magic circle, you put a blade or a sword in the. Some traditions do it in the south, but the way that I was, and most witches as far as I know do it's in the east and it's, so look at your tarot cards set up, right?

You have Pentacles, which is earth and grounding. You have cups, which is love and emotion and poetry and art. You have wands, which is manifestation and the integration of above and below, and you have east. East is thought and intellect in the books. Medusa is of the Tribe of the East, and they were all those scientists and they're all the innovators and they're the thoughts, right?

So I'm wondering with Michael having a sword as part of him, if a lot of him is inspiration, thought, idea, and [00:09:00]those things move very quickly. Plus he's an angel, which also they move very quickly, you know, in terms of they can split themselves into pieces. I'm wondering with her coming in as that grounding stone sort of Northern earth spirit energy, if it's helping even to balance, when he's sending stuff through to you and then you start to kind of go whoop outta your body because you are in a body.

If she's helping to keep you in the body and level out the influx of energy from him. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. That's fascinating. 

Tava Baird: I'm wondering because also Samael also an angel. You know, like we have this whole and what we've Oh, oh, I didn't read to you. Um, okay. Wait, I have to find this. So I have to tell you.

So the Oracle Deck book, [00:10:00] I was at the wedding last weekend and my friend was there. does a lot of editing on the novels for me, and she is a tireless supporter of those novels. And she's really good about noticing things like you changed fonts here.

Like this isn't currently in your table of contents. Like she picks up everything. Right. But I hadn't sent her the Oracle deck 

she asked me how's book of high places coming? Is there anything you want me to read? And I said, well, I'll send you the first a hundred pages. I'm working on the re-edits for Wildwood. And I kind of wrote something else and she 

is also a very progressive person and she knows her Bible shit, right? And I was like, I just didn't know if you would enjoy it and I didn't wanna send it to you. And she goes, send it to me.

Alright now. she is not up on [00:11:00] all the Samael stuff. So imagine that I'm sending that Oracle deck book to someone who literally, one of her first questions to me in the comments was, are Samael and Lucifer the same person? Like, so we're talking like, Oh wow. Like which is perfect.

Jennifer Taylor: Really? Yeah, 

Tava Baird: it's perfect. Because it, I was like, well, if she's willing to do this, you know, and I've put like biblical stuff in there. She actually knows enough Bible history to like, right. So like I, but I realized like, okay, people might pick this book up and not be familiar with any of the Samael things. So like I put a footnote in and said, um, a little note on Samael, although often confused for Lucifer.

The two are separate meetings, like, you know, Samael is associated with Azzazle and stuff. She sent me a quote from John from the Bible. You know, where Samael talks about, I [00:12:00] Am the Word. She sent me a bit of biblical history, talks about the word and how there are two conflicting writings in the Bible about the word and their relationship with God.

And I read it and went, so, hang on a second, I'm gonna pull it up. 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh wow. Because 

Tava Baird: I just found it really interesting and it was something I didn't know. Okay, hang on, 

Jennifer Taylor: let 

me find it. Oh wow. 

Tava Baird: Just take me a minute. 

Jennifer Taylor: While you're looking for that it, when you were talking about the stones and North. Yes. these stones came from directly north of 

Tava Baird: here.

Oh my God. Oh my God. Like 

Jennifer Taylor: they, these came from Vermont. 

Tava Baird: Oh, it's true. They're from the north. That's amazing. 

Okay. It's under the initiate card. And my writing says The Initiate is the only [00:13:00] card in the deck that bears no words.

It precedes the Samael card, and as Samael often describes himself as the word, it holds silence as part of its meaning. When her comment was," interesting as John one verse one says, in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. This is often viewed as a counter to Genesis one, one, which says, in the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth."

So it's just interesting that she's talking about this sense of balance between these verses that both have to do with the creation and the word, but she's wanting to point out this phrase, the word was 

Jennifer Taylor: [00:14:00] WITH God. God. 

Tava Baird: So in a way, Samael saying, I am, the word shows that he's standing WITH God at the creation.

And that's spelled out in John one verse one. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. I remember. Isn't that kind kind of 

Tava Baird: cool? 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. A and it's saying the word was with God and the 

Tava Baird: word, and the word was, was 

Jennifer Taylor: God. 

Tava Baird: God. With, with Sam Iel talking about God not being a separate entity. But that God is the concept of the wild. It's integration, it's the ALL.

It's the, AND so both of those are true. So Mayel is both an angel with God, but he is also part of the all. He [00:15:00]also IS God. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. It's like, but I love this immediately makes that clear of it's not, and I, and it sounds like it when I think about it. It's a very, very important distinction to make immediately, because then the word and God would be separate and possibly opposing.

And it was like it's, there was God and the word, which to make it seem like they're separate. Separate. But reminding that but, and the word was God like it's like, you know, I'm me and you're you and we are God, we are one. 'cause we are one. You know, and we are one. 

Tava Baird: There's that concept of "and" Right? Yep. And it also shows, if Samael is the word, this whole idea that he is only the king of demons.

It's showing him at creation as part of God. Yeah. And standing with God 

Jennifer Taylor: and clearly a part as a [00:16:00] counter. 

Tava Baird: Yeah. And often viewed as a counter to Genesis one, one, which says, in the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. I just thought that was really, and the fact that I would, I did not know that.

The fact that she read what I wrote and went boom, and she did that in a couple of places. There was another place, let me find the ship one. Oh, and like she had, that's 

Jennifer Taylor: really fascinating. 

Tava Baird: I start talking about Azzazle at one point in the book, and she's like, people might not realize they're not reading about Asrael.

So she's like, put in a footnote that says not to be confused with Asrael. So like, I did like that. 

Jennifer Taylor: Well, and that means to me, oh, here we go. That I mean he, it sounds like he was an integral part of creation.

Yeah. And remember how he was talking about how it almost sounded like in order for something to be created, he had to make the choice to fall, to fall to, [00:17:00] cause that massive release of energy to add the boost. What if part of that was to cause the big bang kind of thing.

Tava Baird: The expansion? Yeah. He said it was the expansion. Okay. here it is. Listen to this under the mystery card. One of the things that it says is seek out awe.

Move your hips against your mate. Dance by firelight and drum until your fingers ache, chase butterflies, and run naked under the stars. There is no sin in skin. This incarnation will be over. Before you know it, your body is a holy thing, not something to be denied, stretch, breathe. You were not made to be clean.

You were made to be fully human. And she highlighted those last two words. You were not made to be clean. You were made to be fully human. And she said, reminds me of the quote," the ship is safe in the harbor, but that's not [00:18:00]what ships are for" by John A shed. Oh. And I'd never heard that quote before. And I was like, I like that.

Wow. I really loved that. But yeah, so she did a phenomenal job on this and it was neat to watch her because it was all new to her. Try to go through and go, wait, wait, are Israel and Azzazle the same person?

Like, did you just misspell something? And me go, okay, there needs to be a footnote here. Or to go, oh, you know, people picking this up may not be familiar with the name Samael, or how I interact with him. I need to add that more. Like, she had me go up and explain what, Umshallah meant much earlier.

But then she also has these awesome biblical references where she's like, oh, oh, that reminds me of this thing from John one verse one that I never would've known. 

Jennifer Taylor: That's really cool. And I mean, I'm familiar with that. [00:19:00] Yeah, But it didn't dawn on me that the word.

What Samael, you know? 'cause he says he is the word. Yeah. But I had never gone back and made the connection between the state that the, you know, those statements of the word was with God and the word was God as the word. Being a reference to him. 

Tava Baird: Keep saying, I'm the Word. I'm the Word. I'm the Word.

Yeah. It's like, listen to the thunder's voice. I am the word. I am the word. It says it all the time and it's like, okay. Yeah. So you talk in words. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. 

Tava Baird: But apparently this is the word of God, you know? we have to parse through it sort out. Or some of those mistranslations, or do some of those have relation to him?

Jennifer Taylor: I wonder in that it, are they capitalizing the W 

Tava Baird: in, yeah. 

Jennifer Taylor: So I mean, even in the Bible, the word is a it's own thing. Mm-hmm. It's a proper noun. 

Tava Baird: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:20:00] Yeah. The quote she sent me has it as, in the beginning was the word capitalized. And the word capitalized was with God. And the capitalized word was God.

Jennifer Taylor: Wow. So, I mean, you can't even say that we're putting something on it that wasn't intended 

because 

it's capitalized as a name. 

Tava Baird: Mm-hmm. And I would never have thought, like whenever they do that, you know, like you go to Catholic Mass and they say this is the word of God, and everybody says, thanks be to God.

Mm-hmm. Blah, blah blah, blah, blah. Word. Word is all through and it's capitalized. But what if it's actually not just a thing God says, but an actual entity. And that's who we've been talking to. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. 'cause he is like, yeah, thanks. Yeah. The word of God for the people of God. He's, 

Tava Baird: he's going The angel of Word.

The angel of Word. The angel of Word. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. I mean, how funny is [00:21:00] that, that we have an angel for everything, all these things. There's, you know, they stand up and say, yeah, it's like the Word of God for the people of God. Thanks be to God or whatever. 

Tava Baird: Yeah. So how does all of that interact if a word is actually a manifestation?

If Samael's energy is a manifestation of the word of God, which he says is not the old man in the sky version, but the, all the wild, the wilderness are natural states. Just like we were talking in the podcast about there's an angel for every blade of grass. Is there an angel of erasure? And if that's simply a misnomer for something else, what does that mean?

What if Samael is the angel of the word [00:22:00] of delivering, delivering teachings to earth? Yeah. I mean, so that people can hear them. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. I mean, because that's 

Tava Baird: what he does. 

Jennifer Taylor: He is the word of God for the people of God. 

Tava Baird: Yeah. 

Jennifer Taylor: I mean, that's what he does. he Yeah, he's essentially the spokesperson for God.

Tava Baird: Yes. Like, which makes, whenever you and I bring him through you and her, your song, we invite him to sing with you. Whenever I write down his words, we are essentially being exactly what Keith said, we're being prophets. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. You're bringing through the word of God. Yes. Quite literally.

Wow. [00:23:00]

And the, to think how many times and how many places and how many people have turned him into, you know, like the devil. And when you think about it, you know, we talk about vilifying women and you know, it's like, how do you discredit, a woman, you do it by all these things. Well, anybody speaking the word of God historically has been persecuted.

the powers that be do not want that. And so it's not just Samael's perspective necessarily that he's bringing in. And it's not like this sort of. A angel. You know, he's always described as being so much more separate kind of from God. It's like, yes, we're all connected to God, but the idea that He is, that [00:24:00] is his role, is the, the Word of God.

To speak the Word of God to God's people, which is everyone. 

Tava Baird: Yes. 

Jennifer Taylor: and if 

Tava Baird: you think about it, what he's been talking about, well, he's so vehement about the men who came to power and turned the garden into, you know, the society today. Think about how many people we have today who claim to be religious, people who know absolutely nothing about, let's start with Christianity who know absolutely nothing about the Bible, but they use it as a c cudgel.

To say, well, the Bible says this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Thou shalt not suffer, a witch to live. You know, they try to claim that there's things against homosexuality in it when there isn't. Samael is upset because as the literal word of God, they are utilizing what his job is, [00:25:00] twisting it and using it to try to control and corrupt.

They're using it to demonize the people he's trying to reach. And so the only way around that is to go with Lilith and welcome those who are demonized in and say, don't listen to their version. Go outside the walls, return to nature. Connect with Godhood yourselves, understand your divinity and listen to the word directly from The All I am here.

And you were not born to kneel. You are no less than me. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. You know, he said 

Tava Baird: Yeah, 

Jennifer Taylor: yeah. 

Tava Baird: I'm just, I'm thinking about, he was talking about, oh, Lilith is called the Queen of Demons. But when I wrote her card, he says, Lilith does not consider herself a queen. She does not wish to rule. 

Jennifer Taylor: Uh, and you know, it, it makes perfect sense.

It's like, you [00:26:00] know, they take his words and they twist them to use them against others as weapons. And then he goes, and, has a special affinity for rounding up all of those who have been wounded by his words that have been misrepresented, misused, and then is vilified for them. And Lilith, who also stood up for, not being controlled by others and is also vilified.

And then, I mean, that works out so perfectly for those who are trying to keep the actual word of God from the people you know. How do you keep people from listening to it? Well, if he shows up and it's like, wow, this is Samael, and you look that up and it's like, well he's the king of demons.

He's the poison of God. He's all these things then, people are gonna be terrified and not, listen to him, even if they're able to actually see and hear him. How many people have said that they were scared to [00:27:00] death? 

Tava Baird: Yes. You know, they were overwhelmed. He, 

Jennifer Taylor: or overwhelmed when he. He showed up and then it's like, you know who he is and you recognize that name.

It's all the more way of keeping you from hearing the word of God because the word of God, and my dad is a minister. He talks all the time about, how the word of God is inconvenient and it irritates people and it pisses people off and it, it asks them to do things they don't want to do.

And so they will do anything to kind of not hear it and not, not have to heed it. And, you know, that's, that Sam, you know, the things that he has to say are not things that are convenient for people in power, that are convenient so, you know, you have to get rid of it. You have to silence it, you have to discredit it.

Tava Baird: And it, the thing that we found out a couple weeks ago about Samael and Azzazle being, you know, [00:28:00] compared or being perhaps the same entity, you know in the Bible it says that, you know, the Israelites go out with the two goats and they say this one is a sacrifice to God, and this one is for Azzazle. And the people keep their sins on that goat and it's driven off to mount Azzazle.

It's driven off into the place, to the portal. It's all of the things that people are demonized for. It's all of the ways, it's the idea of corruption. You can see the split there of the idea between we have to send one thing off because it's impure and that makes the thing for God pure. And you can see the division there, but Samael is saying what you should be doing instead is putting those things together.

Because divinity is not purity. And if you're sending off all of the ways you feel you are flawed, [00:29:00] Samael is gathering up those people who have been demonized and trying to give them a way out. He is the, the destination for scapegoats. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. 

Tava Baird: He is the place of all the things that people say are impure and need to be sent off.

He's the welcoming mountain at the other side where that goat is headed. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah, and the idea, I think it sounded like, the idea is that that goat is being, sacrificed. Banished, yeah. You're being sacrificed to this, dark evil sort of thing that's going to devour it as some sort of sacrifice as like, okay, well now I won't come get you because.

I don't know, I've been satiated by, you know, being fed this and instead that goat is probably, is being welcomed by Sam and is like, here, go ahead. let me take all of that from you. Let me take it in and transmute it and send [00:30:00] it, to where it can be utilized.

You know, like when I was, um, telling you the other day about the message that that woman had gotten from the mountain and that mountain wanted to share was that they pull the, trauma and the heavy energies from the earth and they transmute them and send them up.

And that's what we were talking about today is the kind of transmuting them, like not getting rid of them, but taking them in and transforming them into something that can be useful and helpful. And he was being that mountain. 

Tava Baird: Yes. He just said very loudly. Actually, I am aware the sin eaters come. Do you know what a sin eater is?

Have you heard this before? Oh my gosh, I think we might talked about it. 

Jennifer Taylor: I 

Tava Baird: don't know what all cultures it's in. I know that it happened in Scottish culture at one point.

There's actually even an Outlander [00:31:00] episode where it happens when people would die and they hadn't gone to confession or whatever. This is like, you know, Catholicism, couple hundred years ago they, where they hadn't been necessarily absolved from their skin sins, or the family was just worried that there were still sort of sins and unfinished business on the person who had passed on.

You can hire a sin, eat. When a sin eater was usually a person who had been cast out by the community who was usually destitute or somebody who sometimes had addictions or a hard life or for whatever reason they were impoverished and they would take the money to come to usually, I think it was before the funeral because they didn't let them into the funeral, I don't think.

'cause they would've 'sullied' things. 

and the idea was that this person would come and in [00:32:00] payment, in return for money. So they could feed themselves. They would take on the punishment, they would take on the sins of the departed and often offer to carry out the punishment and judgment that God would deliver at their death.

Jennifer Taylor: Oh good Lord. So 

Tava Baird: they are essentially taking on the burden and punishment that the Lord is in theory going to dish out, even though they did not commit the sin in trade for money to be able to feed themselves. 

Jennifer Taylor: Wow. 

Tava Baird: So Samael is saying, I am the place, the sin eaters come. That's a literal human scapegoat.

trying to survive and willing to give up their place in heaven so that they can eat. 

Jennifer Taylor: Wow. And so, the scapegoat, like the actual goat was essentially a sin eater that didn't have the opportunity to have [00:33:00] a choice. No. They just said You're gonna take on all of the stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Like sending the goat to his zazzle, the sin ears. I'm the place would come to him. Come, he would, he would help to unburden them of, 

yeah. 

All that they had taken on. I mean, I cannot even imagine energetically what it would do to you. Like, you know, we, we certainly know that there is no God that's going to be reigning down some sort of judgment on that person, but we also know that you can very.

Absolutely very clearly take on all of the heaviness and the weight and the unfinished stuff from somebody and carry it yourself. And to consciously do that person after person, after person, person, I cannot imagine what it would be like to be them and walk through being just weighed down and you know, and like you said, if there are addictions and things like that, I mean, that would certainly be feeding the [00:34:00] addiction and making all of those kinds of things worse.

Because a lot of times those are energies that are telling, that are feeding off of you to begin with. 

Tava Baird: And one of the things that Samael talks about, I saw it last night when I was editing the Oracle deck, he talks about the lost City as being a place where people are responsible for their own actions.

Think about the sin eater. This is a rich person. Paying a poor person take the responsibility for their sins on themselves. Right? And so Samael says that is something that happens in the garden that does not allowed to happen in the lost city. Holy crud. 

Jennifer Taylor: Wow.

Tava Baird: This is some bonus material right here, man. Yeah, it's, 

Jennifer Taylor: yeah. Yeah. Absolutely it is. This is a big 

Tava Baird: bonus. Yeah. So [00:35:00] here, that's just a lot. I am the, I am where the sin eaters come, and so there we see the same thing. We were talking about being an entity and being a place. 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh my goodness. Another thing that just hit me.

So I was imagining what it would be to be, you know, one of these Sin Eaters and going to him and what that would look like and what does he have us do With Lilith, we set down all the things that we have been carrying so that we can recognize our own divinity. You know, we set down all the things that have been told us, the things that we have believed, that we have bought into, that we have taken on intentionally or unintentionally, and have carried.

So if he is the place the Sin Eaters go, [00:36:00] then what he does for them is exactly what he does for us. And how many of us are actually walking around as sin Eaters? We are taking onto ourselves. And owning and believing the things that people have told us we are taking on. You know, somebody says, you did this to me.

You know, you break up with somebody who is abusive or is not a good fit and it's not healthy. And they'll say something like, you did this to me. This is your fault. You did this. Yes. And we carry the weight of that, It's like this what the Sin Eaters did, but without payment.

Yeah. And we, and he helps to unburden us of those and help us with Lilith connection, you know, helps us to see that we are worthy of not having to do that. We don't have to carry it. And that's how we access our divinity. 

Tava Baird: Good God. 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh my gosh. 

Tava Baird: This is a whole [00:37:00] different dimension of Samael 

Jennifer Taylor: It is it, it's like yeah, like, it's like we just, we were walking down the hallway past this door that's always been there and all of a sudden we open it and there's an entire, like civic center worth of him that we just discovered and thought was like a closet or didn't even even notice was there.

Tava Baird: Yeah, I got that when I saw that Azzazle is often, you know. said to be because I was always confused how he would identify himself with the watchers. The watchers. And then I would look at the list of the names of watchers and there's no Samael ever. And then I hit that thing that said Samael, uh, Azzazle is often, um, Azzazle is often, uh, also associated with Samael.

And I went, okay, well that makes sense because if he just goes by a different name, you know, it was going, was used in a different name. Uh, and then I look up Azzazle, it's like Azzazle is often said to be the leader of the watchers. And I'm like, 

Jennifer Taylor: oh my God. Oh, I just got the [00:38:00] biggest angel rush. I'm like, oh my gosh, my whole body went blah.

Tava Baird: Yeah. So we have this tie in of, so Have you gotten to the page about the watchers and the books I don't think you have. 'cause it's pretty far on. I need to read you this because you might, I don't think so. You might not know this, and it's really short.

Let me find, here we go. The watchers. Okay. The watcher's card quote is, "no, one of us is one pure thing," and it means observation gathering allies, waiting and watching for a time before acting prudence. But here's the informa, the background information on the watchers. Okay. 

so here's what it says. The book of Daniel in the Bible mentions the watchers, but their story is more fleshed out in the book of Enoch, a non-canonical book found among the Dead Sea Scrolls and quoted by both Jude and Peter and other texts.

The watchers, also called Gregory, where a group of angels tasked with ex [00:39:00] observing humanity and recording what humans did, which, if you think about it, was exactly what he was doing when he saw Lilith, right? He was watching the garden Instead, these angels supposedly fornicated with human women, which led to a race of giants, and those are called the Nephilim being born on earth.

The watchers then taught hidden and forbidden hearts to humans, such as metal work, which was the angel Azzazle specialty, and. Some texts suggest they passed on an understanding of cosmetics. And I wrote, oh, the horror. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yes, I know. For 

Tava Baird: these transgressions, it is said that the watchers reside in chains in a lake of fire.

This is for teaching eyeshadow, people waiting for God's judgment on judgment day. [00:40:00] Samael would beg to differ that the watchers are trapped in a lake of fire, especially since Azzazle is listed among the leaders of the watchers, and Azzazle is sometimes used as another name for Samael. The watchers are blamed as eve is for man's downfall.

Once again, knowledge is portrayed as forbidden. Once again, someone must be punished for sharing it. Leviticus also has this story about Azzazle, and this is a quote from, uh, Leviticus 16 verse six through 10 in the new revised standard version Bible of 1989. Okay, you ready? Here's the quote. Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering for himself and shall make atonement for himself and for his house, and he shall take the two goats and set them before the Lord at the entrance of the tent of meeting when Aaron shall [00:41:00] cast lots over the two goats.

One for the Lord and the other lot for Azzazle. Side note, I have heard somewhere that that casting of lots may have been bone casting. That's neither here nor there. Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the Lord and use it as a sin offering the goat on which the lot fell for. Azzazle shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, and it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azzazle.

So they're sending it into the wild, 

Jennifer Taylor: which is where God actually is. 

Tava Baird: Uhhuh. This is where the concept of a scapegoat comes from. It is also one of the ways, most likely, that goats came to be associated with sin and the devil. The watchers are observers. They have been made scapegoats by the powerful who want us to believe that we [00:42:00] will be punished for seeking knowledge.

Knowledge that could bring abusers of power down. When this card appears, tread carefully and walk wisely, those in power may not have your best interest at hand and may try to keep you from seeking greater understanding. So here's the thing. The thing that the Angel Azzazle, one of the leaders of the watchers, the forbidden knowledge that he transferred to humans was supposed to be blacksmithing and metalworking, right?

So when I was at Free Spirit gathering the bone that I used for Samael, he told me at one point to give it away to someone, and I did. And a few minutes later a woman walked up to me with four hand forged iron nails and told me to pick [00:43:00] one for my bone kit. And I said, oh my gosh, does he have more of these?

And she said, no, I bought the last four. I feel like I'm supposed to give you one of these. And I picked one and said, this is my new Samael bone and I have a hand forged blacksmith iron nail in my bone kit, and it is the Samael bone now. 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh my goodness. 

Tava Baird: I had no idea about this. Azzazle gave metalworking to humans.

Jennifer Taylor: Wow. And there was, oh my gosh. There was something that hit me like a ton of bricks when you were reading that. That I was, that there was some other association with it and now I can't seem to think of what it was, but it was something that. Seems kind of unrelated, but it was directly, it was another like huge thing.

And I'm trying to think in what you read. Was it, 

Tava Baird: was it while, was it something about the [00:44:00] entrance to the tent? Is that supposed to be the meeting house? That thing got me because the tent is the edge of civilized space and they're doing the ritual there, and then they're sending the boat out into the wild, which is where Samael says God is.

Anyway, there 

Jennifer Taylor: there was something about the tent of meeting that that did bring, I feel like there was something additional before that, but I remember when you said that. I heard back when he said healing is a meeting. 

Tava Baird: Oh. And we were 

Jennifer Taylor: talking about how. people, they have to meet me there.

You know, it's like that a healer can't like, sort of do it for them that they have to be willing to meet me there. And there was something about that when you said that, and I was thinking that's the place where the two goats are. There's the goat that gets filled with all of the sin and the goat that's like [00:45:00] pure and healing is a meeting of 

the two.

Oh, I was, it's like he is a 

meeting of those two, not just sort of a meeting of myself and the person that has to be willing to do the work. But healing is a meeting. It's the place where those two parts need to come together and integrate. Right. And the integration is actually the healing. 

Tava Baird: Yes.

I can read the quote again if you think it will help you from Leviticus. 

Jennifer Taylor: Let's see. 

Tava Baird: the book of Daniel in the Bible mentions the watchers, but their story is Mark fleshed out in the book of Enoch.

And Enoch, if you remember, is who became Metatron or Enoch. So the book of Enoch, which is where all the Samael stories still reside. Some say that Enoch was a human who then became Metatron. Others say that Metatron chose to become incarnated for a time as a teacher, and he was Enoch, he's an ancestor of, Noah [00:46:00]

Jennifer Taylor: is from 

Tava Baird: the art.

Jennifer Taylor: I feel like I remember us talking about this. Didn't Samael say he was not human? that Metatron never was human. 

Tava Baird: I don't know. He told us there's something in the Metatron card about this. Uh, that I cannot remember. 

He's also been talking a lot about fragments.

Jennifer Taylor: Because I remember initially when we were talking about Metatron and we looked it up, there was a thing about him being the only angel who had been, that had become, 

Tava Baird: and that, and Yes, Enoch.

Jennifer Taylor: I'm almost positive that we had gotten, at least at that time, something that sounded like that wasn't true. 

Tava Baird: Yeah. 

When was that? 

I remember hearing him say something where I was like, we don't have the whole story here. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. And it may wonder just be that based on our understanding at that point we, the best answer for what we were going for was No. Even though, 

Tava Baird: uh, he's also going umla, umla.

I'm wondering if [00:47:00] he's trying to tell us that perhaps Enoch was a prophet Metatron or he's just trying to get my attention. There's a lot of this going on. Samael. We may have to calm down here. Where was, there was a whole thing I read on Metatron the other night, and I don't know if it ended up in the book or it ended up somewhere else.

Okay. Okay. So under Enoch eight, I said, this spread utilizes eight cards and is named after Enoch Biblical patriarch from before the great flood. It is said that Enoch ascended to heaven and became the angel. Metatron, or perhaps Metatron walked around on Earth for a time as Enoch Metatron is described as a keeper of heavenly secrets and a celestial scribe.

Samael describes him as a teacher of angels and the pattern keeper of the collective divine. Samael also says that Metatron's coming and goings open portals between realms and that the number eight is sacred to him. That's [00:48:00]the name for this layout. I don't go into what Samael says specifically about his history.

I just say what people describe him as

Jennifer Taylor: I guess maybe it was just, maybe it was just that it struck me that where it was like, you know, uh, Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering for himself and shall make atonement. I'm like, it is, it goes so far back, our feeling of need to separate ourselves from our so-called sins, like our flaws and everything that we perceive as, not holy, not good enough, not of God.

That. back in the Bible, they're trying to, and, and bless their hearts, these animals keep taking on, all this stuff that we put on them. Yeah. it's always like, give it to something that, then we can then kill to make ourselves feel better as opposed to heating the message of integration.

Tava Baird: you guess. I [00:49:00] know what 

Jennifer Taylor: it was. They, they were called the Gregory. 

Tava Baird: Yeah. 

Jennifer Taylor: And I was thinking, Gregorian chants. 

Tava Baird: Oh yeah. 

Jennifer Taylor: I wonder. If there is some connection. 

Tava Baird: Alright, Google, Google, Google Call of Gregory and 

Jennifer Taylor: Chance and that because it seems like pretty much everything that we find that has been called evil, called bad, pushed aside, whatever, you know, or like the Gregory it turns out to be something that was actually good and helpful, like Samael, like Lilith, like so many things 

Tava Baird: Gregorian chant had to do with a Pope Gregory, hang on.

But there's a misconception about it. Gregorian chant is the central tradition of Western. Now I'm just Wikipedia in it here. So take this with a grain of salt, right? Gregorian chant is the central tradition of Western plain chant, a form of mono unaccompanied sacred song in Latin and occasionally Greek of the Roman Catholic Church.

Remind me to tell [00:50:00] you about the Greek definition of demon in a second. It's really cool. Gregorian chant developed mainly in Western and central Europe during the ninth and 10th centuries and later additions and redactions. Although popular legend credits, Pope Gregory won with inventing Gregorian chant.

Scholars believe that he only ordered a compilation of melodies throughout the whole Christian world after having instructed his emer emissaries in the Scalan Toum where the pneumatic notation was perfected. The result of most of these melodies later being carolingian synthesis of the old Roman chants and the gallan chant.

Oh God, there's a whole thing here on music history. I'm wondering, what does the name Gregory mean? I.[00:51:00]

The name Gregory means watchful or vigilance,

so the Watchers, or Gregory, which means watchful. I So Hope Gregory, whose name literally means what or vigilant, organizes plain chants yeah, there's a tie to the watchers here. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. So what We might not 

Tava Baird: know it. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. I'm like, what is that? Greek roots, 

Tava Baird: the name Gregory originates from the Greek word gregorios.

Gregorios comes from Gregorian meaning to be awake or to be watchful. In Latin gregarious, the Latin form became associated with the word GREs, meaning flock or herd. The name became popular in the [00:52:00] early Christian era and was born by several saints and popes, including Saint Gregory of Nyssa, and Pope Gregory won the great.

Due to the association with both vigilance and shepherd figures, the name came to symbolize spiritual leadership in a guiding force. so the Latin stem means flock or herd, and watching over them 

Jennifer Taylor: like the watchers, 

Tava Baird: 16 popes and two anti popes have used the name Gregor, starting with Pope Gregory one.

Gregory the Great. It is tied with Benedict as the second most popular name for Popes after John. St. Gregory Days. Okay. We have to dive into this a little bit more. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. Oh, there it is. Written in an, I feel like there's something big here. And think about how much he is about song. You know? I mean, Samael is all about song and the power.

He says 

Tava Baird: that's how angels communicate. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. 

Tava Baird: So I wonder this [00:53:00] is an extrapolation, but I wonder if the plane chant of Gregorian song is a holdover from how the Watchers sang when they were here, how they talked, the energies that they gave off. Remember way back in the early days, we asked Samael what kind of music he liked and he said, chant, 

Jennifer Taylor: yes.

Yes. Didn't he have you play Gregorian chant like he did really early on, because I remember making, he asked him what would soothe him or something and like what he would enjoy. He wanted to 

Tava Baird: hear Gregorian chant. He says, it is reminiscent of the language of angels.

and if the watchers were supposed to like teach things that were forbidden knowledge, I wonder if one of the things they taught was a little bit of angelic was that form of music. So here's something else interesting [00:54:00] because we're looking at this word wale and everything coming from the Greek, right?

So one of the things that my editor had put in her notes was she said, you use the word demon, but then you also spell it eon, D-A-E-M-O-N. And the reason I definitely wanted to put the DAE version in the book is that Sam calls demons collectively the Dae. So it's closer to that, the DAE, right? But, and so I thought, and she said, is there a linguistic difference between the word demon and daemons?

So I started looking it up, and this is a rabbit hole, let me tell you, but one of the things that came out of it that I ended up putting as a section of the book, so the word demon, D-E-M-O-N, is a newer version of the old Greek word, D-A-E-M-O-N. But among the Greek, the word neiman did not mean a negative [00:55:00] entity.

It was a word given to an energetic being that was between a human and a God. Often the ghost of a hero. And they were benevolent and they were beneficial, and they were an energetic entity that was more powerful than sort of a run of the mill ghost. Not as powerful as a God. And they were often seen as like lesser gods and goddesses, or the spirits of heroes.

But then over time the word changed. And when it made the jump to Abrahamic religions, the word demon came instead to be used with a negative connotation as something that could, drain power and possess you. So here's another really interesting [00:56:00] thing. Lilith is an entity that predates Abrahamic religion.

And there's this mother of demons connotation in there. So at once, if we go back far enough back to at least ancient Greece, and they think it was actually used in a positive way long before that. And remember, the Greeks were great at assimilating entities, especially from the Middle East, 'cause demons do appear in the Middle East and stuff into their fold.

That's how we got Hecate, right? she was a Middle Eastern goddess that we now believe was adopted by the Greeks and brought into the fold as the mother of witches, the keeper of boundaries. So what we're looking at here is this idea of the very concept of demon becoming demonized once it hits Abrahamic religion.

So [00:57:00] Samael, I'll keep saying he. He prefers the spelling DAE and that's because DAE from the old Greek and before actually has a positive connotation to it. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. 

Tava Baird: They're not monsters that drain people and feed off of them. They're the spirits of human heroes that are rising above and trying to help others in their unseen state, 

Jennifer Taylor: which is Lilith, you know?

I mean, yeah. The ultimate human hero, you know, the the first one. Yeah. To stand up and say, we were not meant to kneel to each other. We were meant to, you know, embody the, you know, and talk and going out into the wild. And it's another, example of, if there are. These hero ghosts, like these, presences that are sort of intermediaries, like in between mm-hmm.

The levels of power and things. And they [00:58:00] are more powerful. They have more energy and they can lend their energy and support you. if people believe that they're good and they're going to, they can connect with them and they can use that power, they can use that power to rise up against you.

They can use that power to, and they also, they don't need to Makes the divine 

Tava Baird: accessible. Yes, yes. 

Jennifer Taylor: It makes it accessible. It makes people even more powerful and it gives them that direct access or closer access where they don't need to. Come in to get you, to protect them to, for you to absolve them, for you to do these things.

And once again, what's the easiest way to make people stay away from sources of power, but to make them evil and bad and wrong, and something that will people afraid, actually hurt you? You know, it's like if you connect with these things, they will come in and take over you, and they will do all of these things to you.

So people are afraid of them, then they're wrong and they're [00:59:00] demonized and literally become, you know, demons from that. And it's, again, you know, anything like them taking drums from the shamans, they knew the power of those drums. Yes. They knew the power that it gave the people that it allows them to raise.

And so they took them all away. And at the same time, you know, they, they say, oh, this is a bunch of rubbish. They're, you know, heathens, it doesn't mean anything. You can't do anything. you know, don't believe this stuff. There's no power in that. And yet they knew enough to take their drums away.

Tava Baird: There was, so do you remember when you brought me Lemonade this weekend? Mm-hmm. And I was talking to a gentleman, I'd gone over to speak with him. So he had come over to see me a couple of times before and, and his wife was like, oh my God, he's so excited to talk to you. Like I sat down across from him and this is what we were talking about.

He said, I've been doing a deep dive into early, early, like pre Jewish texts, like Canaanites stuff and Sumerian stuff. And he was [01:00:00] talking about, there was a cult of this very powerful goddess at this time. And he was going all into like movement of tribes and who invaded and who was beaten back and these early books that later became the Bible and stuff.

And he was talking about God and I can't remember, I will get in contact with him and find out who it was, but he was talking about this thing that he had read. That right around the time that Lilith was being demonized to this rather powerful female like led cult was rising in prominence and this is at the same time that like Israel like the Jewish faith was being pounded.

And he said, I believe that in these political wars, he said, there is literally no trace. The cult was there and then it was gone. He said, I think that cult and the putting down of it [01:01:00] may be what we're seeing being recorded in these early Jewish texts as like, I think this is Lilith. I think that this sort of political movement to put down this very powerful group that was moving after this goddess that looks a lot like Lilith 

What we're actually seeing in these early writings that become the foundation of, you know, things like the Book of Enoch and other stuff in there are the people at the Times way of recording. You know, it became translated into the fall of Lilith and it has to actually do what this particular goddess cult.

And I'm like, oh God, let's, and so then you walked up with lemonade and I'm like, alright, I'm fueled for a little bit longer. It's really funny. One of the things, I have the Wikipedia page open under [01:02:00] Gregory and there is a list of how you write Gregor IGOR. In a bunch of different languages, and there's probably like 50 of them.

And as soon as I opened up the word, uh, Amharic is at the top. Amharic is the language that Samael told me to write the word. Remember, like I have those suitcases that I carry my pocket supplies in. He had me write a word on it in an Amharic. That is the word. Remember, Amharic is an ethio Semitic language, which is a subgrouping within the Semetic branch of the Afro Astic languages.

It's spoken as a first language by the Amhara people, and also serves as a lingua franca for all other metropolitan populations in Ethiopia. They believe [01:03:00] that this language was around at the time of Jesus Christ and may actually have been one of the languages he and his followers spoke. I read that somewhere, Samael is always like, if something shows up in Amharic, he's like all about it.

Right? As soon as I flipped this page and the word gregorios or watcher, watchful showed up on my screen, it's like bells going off in my head. 

Jennifer Taylor: Wow. 

Tava Baird: He's seeing the word for watcher written in Amhara and this ancient language 

Jennifer Taylor: I have to tell you. So you know how like my AirPods were dying, so I'm going from one to the next, like one gets charged, then the other's in my ear and then I switch 'em out.

Yeah. And I was thinking, I've been on this one for a while. I should switch it out before it dies. Right. I had, my computer had been completely turned. And I'd closed out absolutely everything when I took it to the market this past [01:04:00]weekend. The only thing I have opened up is Safari and Zoom. When I switched AirPods, the music thing popped up and started playing, and it is the power of story.

Lilith one just started playing and when you were like, I think this is Lilith, and I switched AirPods that, and I don't know how it opened. I mean, I didn't open it. It completely opened on its own and I don't think I've ever listened to it in music. I didn't even know it was in there. And that one popped up and started playing it was like the, the chimes at the beginning for the power of story lith.

I was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that just happened. 

Tava Baird: That is insane. I mean, if he's correct. And we may never find out the answer, but if he's correct, we may be talking about the fact that there was at one point in the Middle East, a [01:05:00] cult of Lilith essentially. 

Jennifer Taylor: Wow. 

Tava Baird: That was wiped out or assimilated.

And some of the evidence that we are seeing for that is the story of her becoming demonized. 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh, major. Again, like that angel rush I just watched you go. My whole body just went like, haha, like shaking. Which is always my validation for something like when I get that full body thing, I feel like it's like this download or like the angel's like tapping me on the head and going that like as soon as you said that, it was like that.

Like 

Tava Baird: holy, like. Hmm. Oh my God. Oh, babe. I probably need to go get a sandwich and ground myself. Yeah. And I'll, I'll reach out to Liz, um, and ask if there's a way that pictures of those spirits could be put somewhere if [01:06:00]people want to reach out and purchase one or look at them. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. And be sure to be, in order to make sure that you get the right one.

I will, I'm going to trust you, just like you trusted me to walk to that booth and not take my own card and use it. I'm trusting you to describe to her to make sure you get exactly the right one. 

Tava Baird: Are you sure? 

Jennifer Taylor: Yes. And I will contact her separately and just let her know. Let me know how, you know, what the best way is to pay for that, and that you are going to be talking to her about which one, uh, you know, which one it is, because I'm pretty 

Tava Baird: sure it's Solstice.

Jennifer Taylor: I, I would love, love, love to be able to be the one that helps you to get it. And I am eternally grateful for the fact that you are, the reason that she is sitting to my left and has apparently allowed me to have a balanced conversation throughout [01:07:00] is probably gonna be the best investment you ever made.

You're like, do you know how many hours I just saved myself in editing of trying to make sentences out of a, an entire paragraph of not a single thought. Finished. 

Tava Baird: Oh my God, you're wonderful. You really are wonderful. Oh my goodness. 

Jennifer Taylor: Right back at you. Oh, 

Tava Baird: I'm so excited about the idea of you having one there too.

Oh my God. Like I went over there later and I just kept looking at that one, and I was like, no, no, no, no, no. You've got other things you need to do. No, no, no, no, no. And I just kept looking and I'm like, there's something, the wood goes like this and there's this perfectly clean hole.

It sounds amazing. Right through the side. And she, well, I'm sure you'll see her, but I have been just, she's been there nonstop. And I'm like, oh 

Jennifer Taylor: yeah, you know what? When you, when you talk to her, see if she does have pictures, if she will send me the ones of what she has left. And I'm gonna get Keith to look at [01:08:00] them Okay.

And see if there's anything that like. Hit Tim as well, because I can't help but think that three of them together, you know, power Story. Oh my gosh. Our Power Story. 

Tava Baird: We're gonna have to ask her. Strap down. It's gonna be insane. Yeah. Oh my God, Jen. All right. I will go write her real quick right now and say, oh yes, love.

Can you send us pictures? 

Jennifer Taylor: All right. Love you 

Tava Baird: so much. Thank you for being so patient with me this morning. Oh, I love you so much. I think we now have much, I now think we have like three episodes basically. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah. 

Tava Baird: Yeah. Oh my God, I love you so much.

Thank you. I love you 

Jennifer Taylor: too. Have a wonderful day, and I can't wait to see your, your new friend. 

Tava Baird: Get some rest. Love. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yes, you as well. Take care. Thank you. Bye. Bye. 

So even though this is where Tava and I ended our conversation, I, didn't want to leave you without a song. And so after all of this energy, and actually after editing this podcast and getting to this [01:09:00] point, I found that I really needed to have some soothing. And so I've put here at the end the soul soothing track that I have streaming on the website and also on band camp if you find that it's beneficial. 

I will warn you, it is 11 minutes long, so if you don't have enough time for it, feel free to cut out at any point that you need to. But if you're listening to this podcast, you are probably used to long. Um, I will also say that the energy in it is pretty strong, so it might not be a good idea to listen while driving, but I wanted to leave you with a little bit of soothing here to ease you back into your day after all of this excitement.

And wanted to tell you that we love you as well. 

[01:10:00] [01:11:00] [01:12:00] [01:13:00] [01:14:00] [01:15:00] [01:16:00] [01:17:00] [01:18:00] [01:19:00] [01:20:00][01:21:00] Only.