The Mysteries of Yule: An Interview with Author Jason Mankey

In this seasonal episode, Jennifer Taylor, Tava Baird, and Jason Mankey discuss various traditions and celebrations surrounding the Yule season. They explore magickal traditions in their discussion such as Krampus, Yule cats, the Welsh Mari Lwyd, and the "pooping log", the Catalan Tió de Nadal. Jason shares insights from his book, 'Llewellyn's Little Book of Yule,' which covers a wide range of Christmas-related customs spanning the time from American Thanksgiving to the first week of January. The conversation touches on the historical context of these traditions, their meanings, and their connections to Pagan and Christian practices. The episode concludes with a reflective song and a message from Samael, emphasizing the joy and spiritual significance of the holiday season

Thank you so much for listening!

Link to Jason's Little Book of Yule

Link to more books by Jason Mankey

For more of Jenn's music, visit https://amnivara.bandcamp.com/

For Pagan events with Tava, visit https://www.tavabaird.com/calendar

For Witchy holiday shopping, check out https://darkflowerbooks.etsy.com

Thank you joining us today, remember to LIKE and SUBSCRIBE to keep up to date with your tribe.

Connect with your Hosts!

Tava Baird: tavabaird.com or https://darkflowerbooks.etsy.com.

Jennifer Taylor: Willow Ridge Reiki and Healing Arts https://www.willowridgereiki.com/

Transcript

Tava Baird: [00:00:00] Good morning. Well, good afternoon, Jennifer Taylor and good morning. Jason Mankey from California. Yes, welcome for having 

Jason Mankey: me. Thank you for having me again.

It's, this is my favorite time of year and I'm just delighted to be chatting with you all again. Oh, 

Tava Baird: I'm so glad you could come back in. And we're gonna be talking about your traditions. Jason, I know you wrote a book on that, so I can't wait to pick your brain. Um, but Jennifer, do we wanna go ahead and start, set the stage with some song today and see what comes through?

Yeah, absolutely. Let's do it.

Jennifer Taylor: I invite in exactly the beings that will hold this space for us today and prepare our energies and bring through the messages and the frequencies that are in alignment with our topics today 

And Sam Iel will no doubt have some words to [00:01:00] share with us as well.

Oh,

Jason Mankey: it's always so beautiful. 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh, thank you. 

Jason Mankey: Is there, a master recording of all of them? 

Jennifer Taylor: I don't have anything that has everything. In fact, we've been thinking about doing, some kind of Patreon like thing where we go through and I take out all of the different songs from all of the episodes and just have them on there and available and then maybe take out all of the various semi messages mm-hmm.

As well, like extract all those and have those there because trying to go back and find anything or listen to, it's like there's so much to sift through. but as of right now, there's nothing where I can like access all of them. 'cause they're all in all the various podcasts Right. For like three seasons.

Jason Mankey: But I could, I could just listen to all of that on a loop. [00:02:00] 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh, thank you. 

Jason Mankey: It's just, I don't know, it's just, it's just so beautiful and, and haunting and lovely. 

Jennifer Taylor: Well, I am really grateful and honored to be able to bring it through. it's so interesting 'cause I never have any idea what's gonna come through or what it's gonna sound like, and I'm like, oh wow, okay.

That's where we went. All right. I really appreciate your, compliments. that really means a lot.

Tava Baird: I do have words from Samuel that came through with your song, if you don't mind for me to share them. he says, many of you ask, in which direction shall I go to meet energies that will benefit my path? Where will I find the direction of my ancestors and gods?

Where shall I set my feet? The seasons, um, shellah. [00:03:00] Seek out the changing of the seasons, the turn and flow from one environment to the next. Tune yourself to the cycle of the divine manifestations of your realm. A falling leaves, drifting snow. The rising of the sun and stars celebrate as your ancestors celebrated and find your first steps towards home.

What do you know? Samuel is actually topical this week. 

Jennifer Taylor: I think we're getting more in sync lately with that. 

Tava Baird: Do you think it only took two years for him to figure out what a podcast was? I think it's, he's, uh, 

Jennifer Taylor: yeah, I think it's the, the new guides that are coming in and that helping to, I think it's too helping us to line things up.

It's interesting what, and, and I don't always get visuals of, of things that came through, but at the end in the song, [00:04:00] I was creating it what looked like a crystal ball to me, like out in front of, probably in the. emotional layer maybe of the my aura or spiritual layer, no, probably spiritual layer of my aura and my heart chakra.

And I created, this crystal ball and then at the end sent it out and it blew it out and it just continued and went out and out and out. it's almost like the message with Sam was like bringing us more in touch with what's happening here in a physical realm.

And Michael was sending through the opposite. balancing us in the opposite direction at the same time because that vibration was so, so high, I wasn't even sure I could be in my body. And the messages from Sam Isle were very much.

Rounding, yes. Going down and grounding and connecting, which is so interesting how they always seem to balance each other out in a way. Isn't 

Tava Baird: that funny? Well, [00:05:00] I know a lot of us, are probably still celebr celebrating sa um, I just got back from, being that hallowed homecoming for four days. I'm actually shocked I have voice today because yesterday I didn't.

And, I am headed back out the door to another Saan celebration, mystic Fire, in a short period of time. But we're also turning our eyes forward towards Yule and that's why we have Jason with us today to talk about Yule. So Jason, can you tell us a little bit about your book? 

Jason Mankey: A couple years ago during the Pandemic and I think, yeah, I think it was during the Pandemic, I wrote a book called Lewellen's, little Book of Uel.

And Lewellen had been doing this series called Little Books, and they're not meant to be the final word on anything because they are very small. And for me, who is very verbose with his writing, it [00:06:00] was very challenging to write a little book about Yule, which is my favorite season. But there had been a little book of Halloween and now there's a little book A Day of the Dead.

So there's been a lot of holidays and I wanted to celebrate not just big Pagan, modern Pagan Yule. Yule is also a synonym for Christmas and has been used that way for a thousand years. I wanted to celebrate the entire season. Like the big season from Yes. About American Thanksgiving through the first week of January.

So I wanted to do like every holiday that people celebrate during that time. Every gift. Wow. Every little weird tradition that we do every TV show that we grew up watching, I wanted to jam it all into 40,000 words. And I tried my best and I think it turned out okay. But yeah, but there's a lot to cover.

'cause I mean, I think this is for a lot of people in the world. This is the time of year. This is the big time of year. Yeah. This is the only [00:07:00] time of year you're really allowed to be magical. I mean, certainly as witches and magical folks, we are magical all the time in Halloween. So is really important.

But if you think about the bigger picture, most people aren't magical until Christmas, right? Oh, it's a Christmas miracle. Oh, some fat guy came down my chimney and left me gifts. I mean, there's a whole industrial complex, you know, about how about magic and this particular time of year, and I wanted to put all of that in one particular book.

So that's my book. 

Jennifer Taylor: I think it's really fascinating. I love the point that you make there where it's a time when the word magic is used so prolifically. the magic of Christmas, the magic of, the holiday season. it's even, printed on things that you can buy that Talk about the magic of it.

You're right. it's like the only season when people who are of all different sorts of faiths openly [00:08:00] talk about the magic of the season. 

Jason Mankey: And then you've got magical creatures, you've Tom t Elves, Krampuses, there are Christmas witches, there are Yule cats. I mean, there's a Yule goat. I mean there's everything.

And I think America especially. It's really sad that we don't honor a lot of these other traditions that you find, especially in parts of Europe. And we've just sort of boiled everything down to only Santa Claus. But yeah, there's this whole menagerie of really magical creatures out there that are a part of the holiday.

Tava Baird: I know there's a lot of people who are big Krampus fans. Oh yeah. Like, yeah. Can you tell, talk for people who are listening who aren't familiar with Krampus or have maybe heard of Krampus but don't really know the background, would you mind talking a little bit about that? 

Jason Mankey: So sometimes Krampus is called the Christmas Devil, and it's a good name for Krampus.

He's got horns. [00:09:00] He's very animal-like. I wouldn't say that he's always like a goat, but he's very animal-like in how he looks. Very demonic in the face. There's always a long tongue if you see pictures of Krampus, 'cause he's very, very sexual and Krampus. Uh, there's a lot of argument about the origins of the Krampus.

You'll read things like, you know, the Krampus is related to Norris Paganism. That theory is from a video game and a book actually, and that's not true at all. The, the thing about Krampus is we really don't know where he comes from, and he sort of shows up during this period, right after the Reformation in Europe, at the Catholic Church, and you have people in places like Germany, Croatia, which is where he was really kind of at the height of his powers all through that kind of, uh, mountainy range in there in Europe.

And he was a assistant to Saint, to the baby Jesus who had [00:10:00] replaced. Gift giver Santa Claus, St. Nicholas, because they didn't want Christian Saints doing things. So you have, all of a sudden you have Krampus around and then Santa comes back and St. Nicholas comes back because he's hard to put a good old bearded white man down.

And all of a sudden on St. Nicholas Day, which is the sixth on the fifth, Krampus would come out and he would check on the kids the night before to make sure that they were behaving. And children were terrified of Krampus because he carried a switch and he would beat you on the ass with a switch. And he had a basket on his back and he was said that if you were a bad child, he would whisk you to hell.

Wow. So he, grandpa would come in and check. And now in, especially in remote towns in like in. Uh, in Germany, in the eastern part of Germany, there are Krampus, there are Krampus things where there are Krampus runs where people in local villages, they work all year on their Krampus [00:11:00] costumes and they run through small towns and they beat people while they're running through towns.

It can be quite violent. Uh, but yeah. Wow. There's barricades like, don't cross the barricade unless you wanna be, you know, slapped on the wrist by Krampus. 

Tava Baird: Wow. Know. Uh, 

Jason Mankey: yeah. 

Tava Baird: There are people locally here who have Krampus markets and things and parades and they love it. 

Jason Mankey: Yeah. Like he's really come back the last 20 years there's been this whole new love of interest in the Krampus.

I think it's because our holidays are so stale and there's like, there's no danger in our holidays. And Krampus is danger, right? There's a threat of physical violence, but there's also sex with Krampus. If you look at turn of the century, postcards from Europe that have krampus, that tongue is really saying something.

And sometimes you'll see him with a housewife and his tongue will be out and yeah, it's, it's a wink and a nod. And then there are female [00:12:00] krampuses too who are making the same look at dad also with the long tongue out. Yeah. So dangerous, fun. And you know, a lot of cities now have Krampus runs in their cities, which are really more like bar hops than anything else where everyone dresses up in a cramps costume and goes out and drinks, 

Tava Baird: but yeah.

Oh my God. And I saw my first,Yule cat meme show up last night on social media, something about the Yule cat eating you. 

Jason Mankey: Yes. You know, again, a lot of these Christmas figures, if you're not well behaved. They will come in and extract revenge on you, you'll be punished. And one of the things about Santa Claus is in the 19th century, we gave him those duties as well, right?

Like, you know, the crystal ball, I'm looking, making a list, check it twice and all that. But in Europe there was this real difference between, say, Nicholas, the gift giver, and those who were going to check up on the children [00:13:00] and punish the children. There was a lot of good cop, bad cop, and we've lost that.

You know? Now everybody just gets stuff. The cramp is make sure you know that the kids are well behaved, he's teaching them important life lessons. Right? Right. The only thing we have now in the United States is that snitch elf on a shelf.

I hate that thing. I hate that. 

Tava Baird: Yeah. I know a lot of parents are like, oh no, it's elf on a shelf time. I have to think of something to do. A friend of mine always makes her elf on a shelf go fishing in the toilet, which I always found really interesting. 

Jason Mankey: I just think that things creepy looking to be honest.

Tava Baird: It is, it is. It is scary. It is. Absolutely. So, so Yule is the whole Yule season is your favorite. Okay. I wanna find out if you have information on this, because I can never pronounce this character's name. Mm-hmm. It's in Wales. [00:14:00] They have a horse head and they go the Lloyd Lloyd. Yes. 

Jason Mankey: Yes. 

Tava Baird: Can you say it again for me please?

So I can finally get this right? I'm probably saying it 

Jason Mankey: wrong. You need to get Christopher Hughes or Mary Starling on your show just to make sure. But the Mary Lloyd. 

Tava Baird: Yes. Don't you have to tell a joke. 

Jason Mankey: It will come to, so it's, you know, a group of people are operating this skeleton horse and there's usually an entourage with the skeleton horse.

And traditionally it would go door to door and it would ask riddles at the door and you had to answer the riddles. And if you didn't answer the riddles, the horse would come in and make a fuss and you had to serve the horse food and drink. Basically you had to get everybody drunk. Right. That's a lot of these traditions are about going door to door and having alcohol.

And it's another one of those traditions that no one is exactly sure where it came from. We know it's popular in Wales. It's also was popular on the is of man, which is between Yes. Yep. Which is between, [00:15:00] uh, Britain and Ireland. Mm-hmm. So, so there, there might be some Celtic influence there, pe some people think it might be connected to the idea of the animals that Jesus.

Kind of was born next to, in the manger, like donkeys and things. And all they had was this horse. So they just kind of went with the horse. And it also has a lot in common with waffling traditions, which again, were, we're gonna go door to door and we're going to do something. We're gonna dress up perhaps, or ing you a song or an act, a play on your doorstep.

And then we're going to come in and get drink and food. Very cool. But again, it's, it's, you know, a very open question. And one of the things about the Mary Lloyd too is that season is really long. It can start as early as November and kind of go into mid-January. So it wasn't really just like one day like, oh, you have to do this Christmas Eve, or you have to do this on Krampus Night or St.

[00:16:00] Nicholas Day. You could do this all the time because the holidays were season and not just one day. That was especially true with Christmas for a long time. Like today, we have no idea what the 12 days of Christmas are. The 12 days of Christmas are Christmas through Epiphany, and once you got to Christmas night, you could get drunk as much as you wanted for those 12 days.

And then when you got to January 6th, you had to go back to church. So it was a fine time for a while, the 12 days of Christmas, you know. But again, the Mayor Lloyd, you could do before and after. 

Tava Baird: Well, that seems a little stressful that there's literally like a three month time period where a horse could show up at your house demanding alcohol on any of those days.

You have to really keep a good stockpile going. 

Jason Mankey: It is true. Well, I mean the whole thing with waffling traditions, that was sort of the rule and but then people would only really come by once. Right. In a lot of ways. One [00:17:00] writer said it was a social safety valve, so what you had when with those traditions, you had people who had less poor people going to the homes of the rich and the rich were expected to play along.

That was a part of the social contract that you were going to give people food and drink. It's almost like we've taken advantage of you for the entire year. Here's the one night we're going to be nice to you. 

Tava Baird: Interesting. It's fascinating. Now I have questions about Boxing Day too. Is Boxing Day. I know there's a tradition, at least in Scotland, and I think it's all through Britain and, and Ireland about first footers.

Jason Mankey: You've got me there. 

Tava Baird: Okay. You 

Jason Mankey: got me there. 

Tava Baird: there is a tradition that says the first person through your door. Yeah, it must be New Year's that the first person through your door, you're supposed to find a tall, dark, good looking man.[00:18:00] 

And so people like, like the new year will happen and then people will literally be like, don't let anybody through the front door until we have, uncle Jerry or whoever lined up for this. And then he comes in and supposedly if you've got a tall, dark-haired, good looking man coming in, supposed to win, good luck for the whole rest of the year.

And I believe the tradition is called first footing, that his is the first foot in the door. 

Jason Mankey: Yeah. And I don't want to say that it is Scotland, but I think it's Scotland. But I could be completely wrong. But that's another thing, like New Year's Day today in the United States, it's like we go out New Year's Eve and get drunk and watch college football the next day.

But for a lot of people, that was a super magical day. What you ate determined. Like how the rest of the year would be. I mean, in the United States, black I Peas are a big tradition, especially started amongst uh, black folks. That was what you would eat. You would've black I peas [00:19:00] thought is maybe it was like an evil eye protection.

It would like bounce things back. Some people have also linked the black I peas to money. So that's what you would eat because that would give you good luck throughout the entire year. Yeah, and yeah, people used to do a lot of divination on New Year's Eve. There's stories of people dropping lead into water, like heating up the lead, dropping into water, interpreting what the images were in the lead to see what was gonna happen the rest of the year.

As I said, the United States, we screw up these holidays and we make them boring and less dangerous because you know, when you're melting lead in your home, that is kind of a danger. 

Tava Baird: Maybe you can go with candle wax, you know, instead of the pure love in 

Jason Mankey: the book. Actually I do have like one with candle wax instead because my wife's like, you can do that in the house.

I'm not letting you melt. Lead as an experiment for your book. 

Tava Baird: There was another one that, I was looking up, because at the haunted in where I volunteered, we kept finding [00:20:00] pennies in the yard and so I went down a rabbit hole of penny traditions and there was one that I think was Ireland, where you keep a penny over your doorframe for the year, and then on New Year's Day you take it outside and throw the old penny over your shoulder and then put a new penny over your doorframe.

And I guess the pennies that were thrown over your shoulder would be given to people to buy bread. And then you were setting yourself up for the next year. So the, this tradition was supposed to keep food flowing through the house and into the community, and I thought that was cool too. 

Jason Mankey: There's a lot of traditions with doorways.

There's something really magical about letting somebody into your house. There's another Yu Tie tradition usually done on New Year's Day called Chalking the Door, where you would sort of write and chalk what you wanted around the frame of your door, probably borrowed from the Jewish community, but that was a, a thing [00:21:00] people did.

It was eventually very popular amongst Catholics for a while and Oh wow, as a Witch, you know, you can do it with runess or just symbols or whatever. And it, you know, goes away after three or four days. And depending on how you do it, most people won't even really realize that it's there. But it's to again, give you good luck throughout the entire year.

Tava Baird: Interesting. Now, do you have any idea why do we stuff Santa down a chimney? 

Jason Mankey: Just a way into the house, 

Tava Baird: not just 'cause the doors are locked, right? The 

Jason Mankey: doors are locked. Right. So here's a way into the house and when that tradition was being put together, everyone had a chimney because if you didn't, you would be cold.

And you know, Santa in his modern form really is a kind of a tradition of the northeast. You know, you had the Pennsylvania, you had the Dutch, not Pennsylvania Dutch, but the Dutch in New York, new Amsterdam, who brought St. Nicholas in. And then over a period of time, there's sort of a change to St. Nicholas where he kind of takes this [00:22:00] more rough and rugged form.

If you look at St. Nicholas pictures from the Netherlands around the holidays, he's much more tall. Saintly, not the portly man that we have an American though, because we're on the frontier, you know? And we're burly and strong. We had to make that figure a little more rustic, which is what happens with Saint Nicholas to Santa Claus.

But that was the way in to the house. And also, you know, the, the idea of the flying reindeer, you would land on the roof, so you'd have to go down the chimney. 

Tava Baird: Very cool. What is the weirdest one tradition you came across, or the most unusual, or one that just really stuck in your head is, okay, this is memorable.

When you were doing your research, 

Jason Mankey: there is an area in Spain, uh, Catalan. And there the people there are not really Spanish and they have their own language. Barcelona is a part of this region and for whatever reason, there's a [00:23:00] lot of pooping traditions in this region. And there's a figure there called the Kaner, which.

Can I cuss on this show? Is that okay? Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. 

Tava Baird: we click the little box that says, adult content, so go for it. 

Jason Mankey: Tr like, the name literally translates as the shitter. That's, oh boy. It's a peasant boy and he's dropping his pants and like, like on the ground is a, is a fresh deuce right there.

He's pooped on the ground and people include him in manger scenes. 

Jennifer Taylor: Oh wow. Wait, what? That's an interesting intersection. 

Jason Mankey: There's a couple of theories about the Kaner and what it could mean. Some people say it's an ancient Pagan tradition and this is fertilizer. That's tough because it's not in the historical record early enough to probably be a pre-Christian tradition, but who knows?

One of the other theories is that. This is a Christian idea that none shall know the [00:24:00] time or place of Jesus's return. So Jesus could come back, of course, while you're in the crapper. So, you know, you have to be aware at all times. And then one of the more, I think this is probably the more plausible one, is the peasant boy has no gifts to give.

So the only thing that he has to give is his poop, which can be then used as fertilizer. But there are malls with like two story ners pooping in the mall and oh 

Jennifer Taylor: my goodness. And 

Jason Mankey: then the figure is also kind of reinterpreted now, like you have poops who are in the pooping motion. There's, I'm sure there are, you know, past presidents our, our current president, you know, other famous figures all.

Squatting and taking a dump. The same place too. There is a, there is a pooping log and that's really kind of what its name is. The pooping log. The pooping 

Tava Baird: log. Wait, wait, wait, wait. The log poops or it's where you 

Jason Mankey: go 

Tava Baird: to poop. 

Jason Mankey: [00:25:00] The log poops. So you, it's kind of like elf in a show, like you put the log out early in the holiday season and then because it's a very simple craft to make, the log grows bigger throughout the holiday season.

So like, you know, mom and dad put it out one week, the next week there's a bigger, there's a bigger one out, and then the third week there's an even bigger one out. And then on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day, exactly when really depends on the place. I mean it's like, you know, in the United States everything is Christmas Day.

In Europe it can be, lots of other days parents heat up sticks on the stove and the kids beat. The little pooping log with the sticks and there's like a little cape that he wears and after they're done beating him, they like lift up the cape and there are like presents and candy there. 

Tava Baird: Okay. Yeah. Do, do you swear to me you did not just make that up?[00:26:00] 

Jason Mankey: No. These are real things. I, I'm not creative enough to make these things up, 

Tava Baird: but how do they know Can't help it? How do they know the log is pooping? Is there, are there accessories? Well, the 

Jason Mankey: point, the cape is at the bottom of the log. Right? Right. So, uh, clearly this is all coming out of the logs ass. So yeah, he is definitely pooping.

Jennifer Taylor: So, and does is he then pooping out the presents? 

Jason Mankey: Yes. 

Jennifer Taylor: So he sort of beat him until he poops himself. And that's, yeah, those are the presents. 

Jason Mankey: Yeah. If you're constipated, just have somebody beat you with hot sticks and you'll be pooping up a storm. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah, I think it's interesting. The sticks have to be hot.

Like wouldn't wouldn't it work okay to, you know, you, you would think that just beating them with the sticks. But I guess the, the hot part is the secret 

Jason Mankey: traditions are traditions, you know? Yeah. And they don't always have to make sense to us. 

Jennifer Taylor: I'm sure there was some reason we're just, you know, we're just not getting, we 

Tava Baird: just don't know it.

That [00:27:00] that may be the most creative thing ever spoken on this podcast. Yeah. I'm just picturing people getting ready for the holidays. Oh look, the four gradations of pooping log are here in this box. Their capes. That's so wild. 

Jason Mankey: Yeah. Again, American Christmas and Yu Tide is boring versus what we get in other places with extra holidays and, and more excitement and just more interesting figures.

You know? Yeah. Like when people come to my house, they're like, what is that? And I'm be like, well, that's, that's the Krampus, you know, and that's, uh, Bana, the Christmas witch. That's, you know, that's why she's there and all these other things. And they're like, oh, I didn't even know that was real. And I'm like, yeah, Christmas is really awesome if you know where to look.

And they're like, why is there a little pooping guy up there in your nativity scene? And I'm like, because he is the Kaner and he should be there. Yeah. I'm, I'm a witch with a [00:28:00] nativity scene. In my defense, I found one where all of the, like figures from the Bible look like trees. So to me it's very pagan, you know?

And she is really the sun and stuff, you know, but yeah. But also I have my, oh, I'd 

Jennifer Taylor: love to see that. Yeah, 

Jason Mankey: I have some pictures of it online. I could send you some. I have to say my daughter would 

Jennifer Taylor: love the pooping log. I think kids nowadays, 

 the idea of anything pooping is like hilarious. And so I can see how that would be a big thing. Like, and then I seeing the law grow, it's like there is more and more stuff in there and the idea that it comes out as poop, I think would be a very popular thing. I feel like that is actually something that could take off in the us when you think about it, it's very pinata.

 it's like you beat the pinata and you get the candy and there's definitely that sort of connection idea there. 

Jason Mankey: That's really, that's really good. I'd never thought about that before, but a lot of times some of these traditions can be related and we don't [00:29:00] really see them as being related.

You know, there's a lot of Mardi Gras traditions, you know, which happens in what, March? February, yeah. That actually come from the holiday season. Like the whole king cake is something that people used to do during the holiday season, and then it kind of got transferred over there in New Orleans to Mardi Gras season.

So with the 

Tava Baird: little baby in the cake. Hi. That's right. 

Jason Mankey: Yeah, because you have whole, like, there are, there have been babies and cakes with Christmas traditions, and then you have things like the bean king where there's a bean in the cake. Other places it might be a coin in the cake, but it, you know, says that somebody has to do something or be a certain way, or is going to have good fortune for the year.

Trick or treating, to me, is probably more related to waffling traditions than anything else. And trick or treating. Also used to be done during Thanksgiving. So all of these, all these holidays just kind of butt up against each other and take things from each other. And it really wasn't [00:30:00] until the 20th century where we decided, oh, you're gonna go here, we're gonna slot you in here.

Yeah, this is Halloween. You get this Thanksgiving, you just get food and you get to be Christmas. You know, and, and Christmas. You get most of everything. We're just gonna spoil you entirely. But you know, there was a lot of sort of back and forth about where these traditions went for a long time. The, the trick or treating one is one of my favorite ones.

'cause there's stories of people on Thanksgiving Day dressed up, kids dressed up in costumes, and they would go door to door businesses and ask for candy 

Jennifer Taylor: really? 

Jason Mankey: And eventually the Macy's Thanksgiving day parade was so popular in New York that the kids stopped doing that and then started doing it really on Halloween.

And then there's, you know, traditions of dressing up and going out during Christmas time to get candy or food or alcohol or whatever it is, right? We don't see that whole lot anymore, but there are parts of Canada where it's still, [00:31:00] well it still happens is Newfoundland where they do the, they do the momming on Christmas Eve.

And if you ever get to, if you ever look up pictures of the Mumms there, they wear clothes of people in their household that don't fit them. They might put them on backwards pillowcases over their heads, and then they go door to door and people invite them inside the house. And you get to ask these people questions 'cause you're supposed to try to figure out who they are.

And if you can't figure out who they are, you get alcohol, everything always tends to go back to alcohol. Yeah. But again, that's a decorator, that's a, you know, dressing up tradition that's not at Halloween, that's at a different time of year. And in Philadelphia, we still have the giant Mums parade. Yes.

Sixth or so. Which again, which was later of course, kind of added to Mardi Gras in New Orleans. Right. That whole, uh, style of dressing. 

Tava Baird: Oh my gosh. So cool. It's, it, I'm [00:32:00] so glad for you to talk about all these things because I think, especially for those of us who may have been raised in a household that celebrates, traditional American Christmas, sometimes the only links you really think about to youell are like the Yule log and the greenery.

But There's such a wealth of things to draw on for the whole season. It's fantastic. 

Jason Mankey: I, I think that this season is the most pagan of all the seasons. There's a lot of things that really date to pagan antiquity when it comes to the holidays and we're really prevalent, especially before the 20th century.

The Roman Saturnalia was the biggest influence on the holiday season. The Roman Saturnalia was three, five or seven days, depending on who was the emperor and how much work they wanted done. But there was a long tradition of, and, and Rome was built on slavery. And I hate saying the word slavery 'cause slave 'cause it just is an awful word.

The idea that anybody could do that. But in, in the Roman Empire, if [00:33:00] you were a slave during Saturnalia, you got the best wine and the best meat. And there was this sort of role reversal of the household where the slaves controlled the house. And the people who were the owners of the slaves were subservient for this period of time.

And I like to refer to that as Miss Rule. And you can see examples of this throughout Europe, really up until about the mid 19th century where people would go out and they would expect their betters, uh, financially to give them things. And that all comes from the Saturnalia in the United States, uh, pre, pre-Civil war.

Again, you know, I don't, there's nothing to glamorize about slavery in the South during that period of time, but they basically reenacted the same traditions of Saturnalia where people who were slaves were free sort of for that day and got good food and drink on Christmas. They just sort of moved the holiday a little bit.

Tava Baird: I had no [00:34:00] idea. Oh my goodness. And this so interesting and this 

Jason Mankey: days here for a very long time, but in. Start of the 19th century, you've got this emerging middle class. The poor people are going door to door asking for things, and the middle class is like, yeah, you know, I'd love to participate. I don't really have that kind of money.

Right, right. And these groups that would go out were often mobs looking to be drunk. And it was unruly and people were trying to put a stop to that, especially in new urban areas, you know? Right. Things had changed a lot. You know, before it was 80% rural, 20% city. And now by the beginning of the 20th century, that's kind of reversed and there's this effort to turn Christmas into more of a children's holiday.

Jennifer Taylor: Yes. 

Jason Mankey: With Santa Claus, we're gonna give gifts. We've got capitalism now in full force. We're making things. You should buy them and give them to other people. You shouldn't go door to door so much and ask for alcohol. Right. But [00:35:00] again, all of that is from the Roman Saturnalia. And there's, you know, as I said, this long tradition of upsetting the social order, which was what Saturnalia was about, long tradition of cross-dressing on the Saturnalia, which survived into the Christian years in some places where people would dress up and they felt free to do whatever they want, wanted to do.

You know, there was, you could gamble on Christmas when you couldn't gamble before. It was a time for vice, because that's what people got away with in the Roman Empire for so long. And then a lot of the trappings too, of modern Christmas, the, the pine bows, they decorated that way at the, at the Saturn alley.

They didn't use whole trees. That's probably a more modern invention coming out of the 13 hundreds. 14 hundreds. But they did use, you know, pine bows. They, they decorated with Holly. Anything that bloomed. During the winter is, or was green during the winter, that's what you would want to decorate with.

Mm-hmm. And they also sang rowdy carols. And there [00:36:00] was another holiday that was very close to Saturnalia called the January Callans. The Romans liked to celebrate the start of every month, and the Callans wore a particular joyous time of year. You decorated the same way that you did for Saturnalia, so you kind of took the season a little bit longer.

And there was a long tradition of giving out gifts on the Callins and that was adopted by Christians with Christmas. And for a long time, people gave out Christmas presents on New Year's Day, and they've still called them Christmas presents. Up until about the 20th century. Again, it varies from space to space, country to country, region to region.

But you know, it wasn't just Christmas. You could get presents on Christmas, you could get them on New Year's Day, new Year's Eve and King on 12th Night, which is January 5th, or on epiphany January 6th, as I told you before, I can ramble about this stuff for I 

Tava Baird: love it though because I, I, I 

Jason Mankey: really do love it so much and I don't think a lot of people have ever really researched [00:37:00] Christmas other than I'm gonna no share this meme.

And a lot of those memes are wrong. To me, the real truth's even more fascinating than anything else. 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah, it is, it's really fascinating. I know we were talking about the magic of the, this whole season. What are some of the most, whimsical things that you've learned about?

Jason Mankey: Wow. That's good. 'cause you know, one of the things I love about it is that it's less whimsical. 

Jennifer Taylor: Gotcha. Most 

Jason Mankey: people think it's right because we think that it's like, you know, a holiday for kids. Yeah. And up until the 19th century that really wasn't the case. So much kids got presents for sure, but it was also a holiday for adults, you know, to go out and, and do things that they normally couldn't get away with.

I just think there is a whimsy in it, in the, there's this expectation of, of the holiday season, the expectation of, man, I'm gonna get this thing that I want, or something miraculous can [00:38:00] happen. Or the expectation that I'm gonna visit grandpa and grandma and I love grandpa and grandma so much, and that's just absent the rest of the year like this, this feeling of hope for fun things coming up.

And I think we feel that all throughout December, or perhaps we're just exhausted throughout December. 

Tava Baird: when you think about it, you're going into December, you're going into the shortest days, the coldest days. A lot of times it's dark. People are, hoping they have enough to make it until spring when, there's some foods coming back.

 are there any interesting foods associated with this time of year thatpopped up for you when you were work looking into this? 

Jason Mankey: There's a long history of various kinds of alcohol. You know, there's a Saturn Elliot wine and we actually have the recipe for that. And it doesn't sound good at all.

I don't want to add saffron to my wine and you have to heat up the [00:39:00] wine. But, you know, that was something that people drank and we actually have a recipe for it. And we don't have a ton of old recipes. From like the Roman era. So that, that's a kind of a cool one. There's of course wsl, which could be different from place to place.

There's Lamb's wool, which is a whipped beer with apple chunks in it, and it's very frothy and sort of an alternative to wassel in, in England especially. But that, that was one of those drinks that was there. Um. Really, it was just a time of abundance, you know? Right. There's two things that happened in the winter, which makes Yule really interesting.

The first is that we talked you, we all talked about that a second ago, was the scarcity, right? There's this a scary time of year if the harvest has been bad, if the weather gets really, really awful, you could be cut off from everybody around you. You know, there's a whole lot of foreboding that can go into this time of year.

But then the second part [00:40:00] is this is the time, best time of year, because there's more of everything than there is any other time. So I've harvested the grain and I've made the beer. I've harvested the grapes, and I've made the wine. We have plenty of booze now. We didn't have booze before. We cold the herd, and it's cold outside, so the meat isn't gonna go bad.

We have all this meat that we're gonna have to eat. Oh, how terrible for us, right? Uh, so a lot of these traditions are built around. Being able to eat all of those foods, whether it's, it's, you know, especially like a pork dinner or beef or whatever it is that people are raising. Um, so it's either scarce or too much.

Right. And you'll, for the most part, has always celebrated the too much. Yes. It's always really been a time for excess. Yes. 

Tava Baird: Oh my gosh, that's so awesome. So can you repeat the name of the book so people, now that they've gotten to hear it, can, look it up and get [00:41:00] themselves a copy. 

Jason Mankey: Lewellen's Little Book of Yule.

Tava Baird: Lewellen's Little Book of Yule. 

Jason Mankey: It's 

Tava Baird: awesome. 

Jason Mankey: And it is little. It'll take you like a day to read. 

Jennifer Taylor: That mean, that seems like a perfect gift for people, that you just don't know what to give. what an interesting sort of thing to give people around this time.

 it has to be a fun read, You know, learning about all of these different traditions and ideas and certainly a, conversation starter when groups of people are getting together and you're thinking, oh, what are we gonna talk about?

Well, let me tell you about the pooping log. Like, 

Jason Mankey: it's, it's a, I think it's really fun. I love reading the reviews on like Amazon for it, you know. Because there are people, like this book is too Christian because, I mean, a lot of these traditions are Christian, you know, but have nothing to do with Jesus.

They just happen to be contemporary to that particular period of time. And then there are other people like, this book is too Wicked, which I don't wicken, which I don't know how [00:42:00] that anybody thinks that, 'cause there's no wicked ceremonies in it. It's like you can't, you can't make anybody happy with what you write anymore.

Apparently. 

Tava Baird: Sounds like an awesome host gift. Just get yourself a stack of this book and then whenever you're going to somebody's house for a holiday, get together. What a fantastic thing like Jen said to read aloud and pass around. Or if you are having a holiday, get together to be like, what can I put in here that's gonna be memorable beyond everybody's taking a Ziploc bag of cookies home.

Jason Mankey: Right. I 

Tava Baird: know. I'm gonna go get a copy because. dark Flower Collective, which is a little local, group that I run for New Pagans. We are doing a yule cookie exchange and now I'm like, let's see if we could pull out a horse skeleton baby and really make this lit. You know, 

Jason Mankey: no recipes for those in there, sadly, you know?

Oh 

Tava Baird: my God, that sounds awesome. There's 

Jason Mankey: a bush [00:43:00] ju well in there. There's a what? Bush ju Well, it's a Oh 

Tava Baird: bush ju Well 

Jason Mankey: it's really just a like a, like a tree. Like a like a cake that looks like Yeah, like a tree. And it's very popular in France and that's the traditional holiday dessert, but it's very difficult to make, 'cause you use a sponge cake and then you have to roll the cake.

Oh. So it's in layers, you know, and it is very, very tricky to do. Wow. 

Tava Baird: The French know how to do things to pastry that none of the rest of us can do. 

Jason Mankey: Absolutely. Yeah. 

Tava Baird: So. Yeah. Oh my God, that's fantastic. Oh, I'm all in the holiday spirit now. I still have soen stuff to go to. I'm like, I'm ready to roll now, man.

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah, I'm really excited to, to get the book and to learn more about these different traditions. And I like the idea of really sitting and thinking about like the different ones that we don't know [00:44:00] the history, we don't know where it came from, but sitting with what is the meaning, the deeper meaning for the people that are celebrating these things what is it that it brings that they're needing from their, lives 

There's so many different rich layers to it, there's the fun superficial layer of oh my gosh, I've never heard of anything. This stuff is so wild and so different than what we're used to. And just the discovery, but then the. Opportunity to look deeper into all of these different, traditions and the areas that they came from.

And yeah, that sounds like a really lovely thing to be contemplating as the days get shorter and we are needing to sit inside near the fire and have a good book and something to contemplate. 

Jason Mankey: And I know for witches especially, there's like this sadness that Soen is over. And as we're recording this, we're in that season where Yule and Soen are kind of really butting up against each other, which is really fascinating.

But for a long time, [00:45:00] traditions around Yule were about telling ghost stories and it was about things that go bump in the dark, kind of like Halloween is. And I also think that if we think about a lot of Yu Traditions and families, we're really paying homage to our dead all during this period in a way that we probably don't during the rest of the year.

I know that for me. Yue Thanksgiving, whatever the holiday is this time of year, I'm just trying to recreate my grandparents' house. 

Tava Baird: Yeah. 

Jason Mankey: And, and so that is paying homage to them and I feel closer to them at this time of year, I think, than any other time of the year because of those memories we have is as of children.

So in a way, Yule is like an extended Soen period because all of these holidays actually really like each other and grew up together, and our ancestors are certainly here during Yule tide. 

Absolutely. Yeah. I love 

Jennifer Taylor: that connection that you made. I think, like you said, in the United States, we tend to [00:46:00] compartmentalize everything in so many ways.

And the idea that there is really just a flow, like a continuous flow and intermingling of all of these times and how they all flow from one, into the next and. That connection of the ancestors and how strong it is as an undercurrent in all of Yu and all of our traditions. And I think that it's part of why it, for a lot of people, the yule time can be a hard, a really hard time in the hardest time of the year for people who have lost, lost loved ones or had, traumas related to family and tradition and not having it because it really does, there is that part that I think a lot of times people don't think about, but that, that connection to the dead or, or to loss and the idea of being able to, to weave that in more consciously and, look for the connections maybe if they don't have them in the, embodied people around them, looking for those connections [00:47:00] of ancestors and reaching into that at a time when.

Yeah, usually we would think about that more of as a so thing, but to reach into that around Yol is, adds a, another really rich layer to that too, to consciously bring in that connection. I love that 

Jason Mankey: a lot of our ancestors didn't celebrate so, or even Halloween, but I'll tell you what, they did celebrate.

They did celebrate the Yue season, whether it was Christmas or Lee's Day or whatever else. One last little sad story though is every, I don't throw away anything that I've ever gotten for, for the holiday season. It just kind of accumulates in the big tubs of holiday stuff that we have. So I always have like stockings for my cats and every year I come across my cat's stocking my cat who is deceased, you know, and it, it is very sad to have to see that stocking, but it's also joyful because, you know, I get to relive in my mind.

Those moments with her. [00:48:00] Not that she ever woke up Christmas morning excited to go through her stocking. She was a cat, but she did like running through the paper. Right. But you know, again, it is a, it is a tough time, but I also think some of the memories are really good and the memories remind us why we love the people that we've lost so much.

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. that connection doesn't end. And just a reminder that, we think about the veil being a lot thinner around soen, but the veil is really always much thinner than we think about or realize.

And that, we can still invite them in and share the time together. 

Tava Baird: I mean, you think about, A Christmas Carol dickens with the ghosts coming back. at the time of Christmas, the Scrooge needs to do spiritual work, right? 

Jason Mankey: Yeah, absolutely. And 

Tava Baird: we're entering this period of sacred darkness.

And I, I love that [00:49:00] idea that, here it comes, here's the turning of the year. this is an incredibly moving and spiritual time when a lot of the things you have to turn externally for, now become internal. you're inside gathered around the heart together.

Or in some cases you're gathering with yourself and saying, when we start to see spring come, who do I want to emerge from the ground as at that time? And let me work on that here. it can be wild and fun and, we're pulling out the recipes of our ancestors and inviting them to have a place at our table.

But we're also thinking of, what legacy we wanna leave behind and how we wanna step back out once the days start to lengthen again. It 

Jason Mankey: is, it's a, it is a reflective time of year. It's a celebratory time of year. It really has kind of everything, whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, I think that there are things to be attracted [00:50:00] to this time of year.

Tava Baird: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, this is wonderful. Jason, thank you so much. I'm so excited to get this book. 

Jason Mankey: Thank you for letting me ramble for an hour about, oh 

Tava Baird: my God, yes. I don't think I've ever really sat down and said, what will my Yue traditions be? I just sort of, plucked the things I thought had been buried in sort of our modern Western practice.

And now I'm like, you know what? These traditions all started somewhere. Let me sit down and put together what my Yue will look like, and I can do that right now. So, yeah. 

Jason Mankey: Thank you both. It's always fun being on your show. 

Tava Baird: Oh, thank you. So nice to reconnect. Yes. Oh my God. Absolutely. Then are you going to sing us something on the other side?

Maybe a little festive, something? Who knows? 

Jennifer Taylor: Yeah, who knows? Yeah. Let's, um, bring something in to sort of integrate. I, I'm feeling. Integration, like a need for kind of integration. We've been in so many [00:51:00] different places and so many different ideas and things that, um, yeah, I feel a real integration, uh, song coming on.

Yes. We'll see. I don't have any idea what it's gonna sound like, but we'll see and we'll see what Sam might want to send us off with as well.[00:52:00] 

And quick sound check. Oh.

Okay.[00:53:00] 

Oh.

Oh.[00:54:00] 

Oh,

Tava Baird: [00:55:00] [00:56:00] That feels very nice and pulled together. I have just a little shorts follow up. I guess it is from samo. The season of Bells is upon us. Tie them to your doors, your handles, your harnesses and your hair. Ring them and let your laughter feel along. Clear out the old and herald.

The arrival of the new. The doors swing wide. The candles are lit. The beloved dead. Seek us with arms outstretched the wheel turns. But remember that it is all one wheel. Let your wildness and compassion roam and remember to gift the world your own unique magic.

Wow. Well, thank you so much, Jason, for being on with us [00:57:00] today. I am fired up for you all. I'm gonna create a. UL season right now in that it's the liminal space between the two. And we'll just put them all, both on the bread, like peanut butter and jelly together and go from here.

Um, pa 

Jason Mankey: thanks Miss. 

Tava Baird: Yeah, there you go. That I saw an ornament the other day that said tis the season to be heathen when I like 

Jason Mankey: to ask. Yes. This is very much 

Tava Baird: Heath's greetings. Yes. Um, but thank you so much for coming on and everybody thank you for listening. get ready to start some new traditions of your own or bring back some that you, might spread, some that you might not have been familiar with.

And, if I find a good source for a pooping boy that you can put in your nativity scene, I will let you guys know. 

Jennifer Taylor: And we will have links to Jason's book, in the chat as well. Absolutely. 

Tava Baird: Absolutely. [00:58:00] And Jason, we look forward to talking to you again at some point. It's 

Jason Mankey: a pleasure. I really love talking to you both.

You two do a great job on this show. It's, uh, just a joy to be here, so thank you so 

Tava Baird: Oh, thank you. Thank you. You thank you. All right, folks. Until next week, stay safe and walk in love.